Re: [Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Cornelia Scholz via Tagging]

Hi Illia,

Thank you very much for sharing the link. I have had a look at it before
but since the description focused on flooded roads and road signs and not
area hazards I didn`t go further with it. However, I can see now how having
two too similar tags on flooding could be confusing. I would therefore like
to suggest to adapct and extent the current description and wiki page of
Tag:hazard=flooding (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:hazard=flooding)
to following:

*Tag: hazard=flooded*

Description: A location that is prone to flooding. This tag is used to
indicate areas or features (roads, points of interest, etc.) that are
frequently or temporarily affected by floods, presenting a hazard to
navigation or safety.

Usage:

   - *For Roads and Road Signs*: The hazard=flooded tag can be applied to
   roads and road signs to indicate that the road is prone to flooding. It
   helps raise awareness among users and can aid in route planning during
   periods of heavy rain or flood events.
   - *For Area Hazards*: The hazard=flooded tag can also be used to
   identify areas that are prone to flooding, such as floodplains. This usage
   helps to highlight the potential hazard in a broader context and capture
   community knowledge of local flood conditions.
   - *In Combination with **boundary=hazard*: Ideally the hazard=flooded tag
   is used in combination with the boundary=hazard tag, it denotes a
   defined boundary or area where the hazard of flooding exists. This
   combination can be applied to mark specific regions, neighborhoods, or
   zones that are at risk of flooding. It provides a more precise
   representation of the affected area.

Please note that the hazard=flooded tag should only be applied to areas or
features that are susceptible to flooding. It is essential to rely on
accurate and up-to-date information to ensure the tag's correct application.

What do you think?
All the best,
Cornelia

On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 2:11 AM Illia Marchenko 
wrote:

> Just see wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:hazard=flooding
>
> Regards,
> Illia.
>
> Cornelia Scholz via Tagging :
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Many thanks for the responses and feedback! :) Here a few comments:
>>
>> - The aim would be to collect information on historic floods and
>> community knowledge of hazard exposure. I work for the Red Cross Climate
>> Centre on hazard assessments in typically data scarce areas (e.g. East
>> Sudan). While in many western countries most flood areas have high-quality
>> flood maps derived from scientific flood models, in those areas we lack
>> this information. There are of course global flood models, but they lack
>> verification and validation on a local level in many areas I am looking
>> into. Especially there, being able to capture information of historic, true
>> flood extents and community knowledge is crucial to fill those data gaps
>> and improve disaster risk reduction efforts.
>> - I reviewed existing tags and tag info, but I thought it lacked some
>> uniformity. While with boundary=hazard and the added value there already
>> exist approved natural hazard tags which I find make more sense to add in
>> here.
>> - The OpenHazrdMap was set up as Wiki Page but wasn`t followed through
>> and no voting or approval for suggested tags was carried out.
>>
>> Please let me know what you think, and whether you would approve to
>> adding the flood value 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in
>> combination with the tag boundary=hazard).
>>
>> All the best and many thanks,
>> Cornelia
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 9:13 AM Jez Nicholson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Noted.
>>>
>>>
>>> I was [over]reacting to the section from OP about return periods.
>>>
>>> If this proposal is specifically about areas of historical flooding
>>> rather than areas deemed at risk of flooding then they *can* be observed
>>> on-the-ground.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 01:08 Andy Townsend,  wrote:
>>>
 On 15/06/2023 20:47, Jez Nicholson wrote:

 Whilst it is a great idea to capture local knowledge about flooding,
 especially where it is currently not available, I am concerned that this
 doesn't have on-the-ground verification.

 I don't think that anyone has suggested that - at least not in this
 thread?

 The original email said "The location and extent of these hazard areas
 is often well known by local communities with knowledge of past events."

 When I talked about "what is currently flooded based on current
 measured level and previous observations" I meant exactly that -
 recording that when a river level at a known point reads X, land at Y (in
 the vicinity of X) will also be flooded.


 Flood risk areas are predictions generated via modelling software and
 it depends on which software you use, and the quality of the input data.

 Indeed - the Environment Agency in the UK (and other agencies
 elsewhere) make extensive use of this sort of 

Re: [Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Illia Marchenko]

Just see wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:hazard=flooding

Regards,
Illia.

Cornelia Scholz via Tagging :

> Hi all,
>
> Many thanks for the responses and feedback! :) Here a few comments:
>
> - The aim would be to collect information on historic floods and community
> knowledge of hazard exposure. I work for the Red Cross Climate Centre on
> hazard assessments in typically data scarce areas (e.g. East Sudan). While
> in many western countries most flood areas have high-quality flood maps
> derived from scientific flood models, in those areas we lack this
> information. There are of course global flood models, but they lack
> verification and validation on a local level in many areas I am looking
> into. Especially there, being able to capture information of historic, true
> flood extents and community knowledge is crucial to fill those data gaps
> and improve disaster risk reduction efforts.
> - I reviewed existing tags and tag info, but I thought it lacked some
> uniformity. While with boundary=hazard and the added value there already
> exist approved natural hazard tags which I find make more sense to add in
> here.
> - The OpenHazrdMap was set up as Wiki Page but wasn`t followed through and
> no voting or approval for suggested tags was carried out.
>
> Please let me know what you think, and whether you would approve to adding
> the flood value 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in
> combination with the tag boundary=hazard).
>
> All the best and many thanks,
> Cornelia
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 9:13 AM Jez Nicholson 
> wrote:
>
>> Noted.
>>
>>
>> I was [over]reacting to the section from OP about return periods.
>>
>> If this proposal is specifically about areas of historical flooding
>> rather than areas deemed at risk of flooding then they *can* be observed
>> on-the-ground.
>>
>> On Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 01:08 Andy Townsend,  wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/06/2023 20:47, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>>>
>>> Whilst it is a great idea to capture local knowledge about flooding,
>>> especially where it is currently not available, I am concerned that this
>>> doesn't have on-the-ground verification.
>>>
>>> I don't think that anyone has suggested that - at least not in this
>>> thread?
>>>
>>> The original email said "The location and extent of these hazard areas
>>> is often well known by local communities with knowledge of past events."
>>>
>>> When I talked about "what is currently flooded based on current
>>> measured level and previous observations" I meant exactly that -
>>> recording that when a river level at a known point reads X, land at Y (in
>>> the vicinity of X) will also be flooded.
>>>
>>>
>>> Flood risk areas are predictions generated via modelling software and it
>>> depends on which software you use, and the quality of the input data.
>>>
>>> Indeed - the Environment Agency in the UK (and other agencies elsewhere)
>>> make extensive use of this sort of model, but I suspect that mapping this
>>> sort of thing goes  bit beyond what can usefully done within OSM, though of
>>> course it can be combined with OSM data by a data consumer to create "risk
>>> maps".
>>>
>>>
>>> The current hazardous areas get away with it by mapping areas marked out
>>> by signage. Sure, the signs may have been placed following predictions, but
>>> they are physically there to be seen.
>>>
>>> I suspect that this isn't true for all "boundary=hazard" in OSM at the
>>> moment (picking one at random, the signage for
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/500428513 and the wider
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/15680620 doesn't look especially
>>> extensive - see
>>> https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/australia-wide/australia-wide/13490888#:~:text=Wittenoom%20is%20the%20largest%20contaminated,site%20in%20Western%20Australia%27s%20Pilbara.
>>> )
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Cornelia Scholz via Tagging]

Hi all,

Many thanks for the responses and feedback! :) Here a few comments:

- The aim would be to collect information on historic floods and community
knowledge of hazard exposure. I work for the Red Cross Climate Centre on
hazard assessments in typically data scarce areas (e.g. East Sudan). While
in many western countries most flood areas have high-quality flood maps
derived from scientific flood models, in those areas we lack this
information. There are of course global flood models, but they lack
verification and validation on a local level in many areas I am looking
into. Especially there, being able to capture information of historic, true
flood extents and community knowledge is crucial to fill those data gaps
and improve disaster risk reduction efforts.
- I reviewed existing tags and tag info, but I thought it lacked some
uniformity. While with boundary=hazard and the added value there already
exist approved natural hazard tags which I find make more sense to add in
here.
- The OpenHazrdMap was set up as Wiki Page but wasn`t followed through and
no voting or approval for suggested tags was carried out.

Please let me know what you think, and whether you would approve to adding
the flood value 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in
combination with the tag boundary=hazard).

All the best and many thanks,
Cornelia


On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 9:13 AM Jez Nicholson 
wrote:

> Noted.
>
>
> I was [over]reacting to the section from OP about return periods.
>
> If this proposal is specifically about areas of historical flooding rather
> than areas deemed at risk of flooding then they *can* be observed
> on-the-ground.
>
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 01:08 Andy Townsend,  wrote:
>
>> On 15/06/2023 20:47, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>>
>> Whilst it is a great idea to capture local knowledge about flooding,
>> especially where it is currently not available, I am concerned that this
>> doesn't have on-the-ground verification.
>>
>> I don't think that anyone has suggested that - at least not in this
>> thread?
>>
>> The original email said "The location and extent of these hazard areas is
>> often well known by local communities with knowledge of past events."
>>
>> When I talked about "what is currently flooded based on current measured
>> level and previous observations" I meant exactly that - recording that
>> when a river level at a known point reads X, land at Y (in the vicinity of
>> X) will also be flooded.
>>
>>
>> Flood risk areas are predictions generated via modelling software and it
>> depends on which software you use, and the quality of the input data.
>>
>> Indeed - the Environment Agency in the UK (and other agencies elsewhere)
>> make extensive use of this sort of model, but I suspect that mapping this
>> sort of thing goes  bit beyond what can usefully done within OSM, though of
>> course it can be combined with OSM data by a data consumer to create "risk
>> maps".
>>
>>
>> The current hazardous areas get away with it by mapping areas marked out
>> by signage. Sure, the signs may have been placed following predictions, but
>> they are physically there to be seen.
>>
>> I suspect that this isn't true for all "boundary=hazard" in OSM at the
>> moment (picking one at random, the signage for
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/500428513 and the wider
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/15680620 doesn't look especially
>> extensive - see
>> https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/australia-wide/australia-wide/13490888#:~:text=Wittenoom%20is%20the%20largest%20contaminated,site%20in%20Western%20Australia%27s%20Pilbara.
>> )
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Jez Nicholson]

Noted.


I was [over]reacting to the section from OP about return periods.

If this proposal is specifically about areas of historical flooding rather
than areas deemed at risk of flooding then they *can* be observed
on-the-ground.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 01:08 Andy Townsend,  wrote:

> On 15/06/2023 20:47, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>
> Whilst it is a great idea to capture local knowledge about flooding,
> especially where it is currently not available, I am concerned that this
> doesn't have on-the-ground verification.
>
> I don't think that anyone has suggested that - at least not in this
> thread?
>
> The original email said "The location and extent of these hazard areas is
> often well known by local communities with knowledge of past events."
>
> When I talked about "what is currently flooded based on current measured
> level and previous observations" I meant exactly that - recording that
> when a river level at a known point reads X, land at Y (in the vicinity of
> X) will also be flooded.
>
>
> Flood risk areas are predictions generated via modelling software and it
> depends on which software you use, and the quality of the input data.
>
> Indeed - the Environment Agency in the UK (and other agencies elsewhere)
> make extensive use of this sort of model, but I suspect that mapping this
> sort of thing goes  bit beyond what can usefully done within OSM, though of
> course it can be combined with OSM data by a data consumer to create "risk
> maps".
>
>
> The current hazardous areas get away with it by mapping areas marked out
> by signage. Sure, the signs may have been placed following predictions, but
> they are physically there to be seen.
>
> I suspect that this isn't true for all "boundary=hazard" in OSM at the
> moment (picking one at random, the signage for
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/500428513 and the wider
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/15680620 doesn't look especially
> extensive - see
> https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/australia-wide/australia-wide/13490888#:~:text=Wittenoom%20is%20the%20largest%20contaminated,site%20in%20Western%20Australia%27s%20Pilbara.
> )
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/06/2023 20:47, Jez Nicholson wrote:
Whilst it is a great idea to capture local knowledge about flooding, 
especially where it is currently not available, I am concerned that 
this doesn't have on-the-ground verification.


I don't think that anyone has suggested that - at least not in this thread?

The original email said "The location and extent of these hazard areas 
is often well known by local communities with knowledge of past events."


When I talked about "what is currently flooded based on current measured 
level and previous observations"I meant exactly that - recording that 
when a river level at a known point reads X, land at Y (in the vicinity 
of X) will also be flooded.




Flood risk areas are predictions generated via modelling software and 
it depends on which software you use, and the quality of the input data.


Indeed - the Environment Agency in the UK (and other agencies elsewhere) 
make extensive use of this sort of model, but I suspect that mapping 
this sort of thing goes  bit beyond what can usefully done within OSM, 
though of course it can be combined with OSM data by a data consumer to 
create "risk maps".




The current hazardous areas get away with it by mapping areas marked 
out by signage. Sure, the signs may have been placed following 
predictions, but they are physically there to be seen.


I suspect that this isn't true for all "boundary=hazard" in OSM at the 
moment (picking one at random, the signage for 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/500428513 and the wider 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/15680620 doesn't look especially 
extensive - see 
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/australia-wide/australia-wide/13490888#:~:text=Wittenoom%20is%20the%20largest%20contaminated,site%20in%20Western%20Australia%27s%20Pilbara. 
)


Best Regards,

Andy
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Re: [Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Jez Nicholson]

Whilst it is a great idea to capture local knowledge about flooding,
especially where it is currently not available, I am concerned that this
doesn't have on-the-ground verification.

Flood risk areas are predictions generated via modelling software and it
depends on which software you use, and the quality of the input data.

The current hazardous areas get away with it by mapping areas marked out by
signage. Sure, the signs may have been placed following predictions, but
they are physically there to be seen.


On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, 18:25 Andy Townsend,  wrote:

> On 15/06/2023 16:59, Cornelia Scholz via Tagging wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I would like to propose to add* 'flood'* as value to the *key 'hazard'*
> (to be used in combination with the tag* boundary=hazard*).
>
> ...
>
> What already exists is the key  flood_prone
> =* which is mainly
> for roads that are known to be flooded frequently. The mapping descriptions
> include instructions for mapping flood prone waterway crossings, bridges,
> and highways. However, it is not intended to tag areas, which would be
> covered by the proposed new tag of hazard=flood for areas tagged as
> boundary=hazard.
>
> Hello,
>
> flood_prone=yes on areas does actually get a reasonable amount of use:
>
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1w7k
>
> (about 3000 worldwide)
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dhazard has much less
> use
>
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1w7l
>
> and seems so far been restricted to "fixed" areas such as (clicking at
> random)
>
>- A shooting range: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1149857565
>- An explosives depot: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1166217800
>
> hazard=flooding is used, but mostly on hghways:
>
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1w7m
>
> I'd suggest exploring taginfo (and the overpass links from it) to see what
> keys and values are in use already.  There may well be a use case for some
> new key/value, but I'm not convinced yet.  See e.g.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/hazard#values and filter the
> various values.
>
> Is "OpenHazardMap" an actual map or just a wiki page?  I ask because I
> live somewhere where river flooding is a thing (although usually of very
> low impact in terms of people or property) and I have created maps of "what
> is currently flooded" based on current measured level and previous
> observations.  See
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/398374 .
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/06/2023 16:59, Cornelia Scholz via Tagging wrote:

Dear all,

I would like to propose to add*'flood'* as value to the *key 'hazard'* 
(to be used in combination with the tag*boundary=hazard*).



...
What already exists is the key flood_prone 
=*which is mainly 
for roads that are known to be flooded frequently. The mapping 
descriptions include instructions for mapping flood prone waterway 
crossings, bridges, and highways. However, it is not intended to tag 
areas, which would be covered by the proposed new tag of hazard=flood 
for areas tagged as boundary=hazard.


Hello,

flood_prone=yes on areas does actually get a reasonable amount of use:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1w7k

(about 3000 worldwide)

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dhazard has much less use

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1w7l

and seems so far been restricted to "fixed" areas such as (clicking at 
random)


 * A shooting range: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1149857565
 * An explosives depot: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1166217800

hazard=flooding is used, but mostly on hghways:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1w7m

I'd suggest exploring taginfo (and the overpass links from it) to see 
what keys and values are in use already.  There may well be a use case 
for some new key/value, but I'm not convinced yet.  See e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/hazard#values and filter the 
various values.


Is "OpenHazardMap" an actual map or just a wiki page?  I ask because I 
live somewhere where river flooding is a thing (although usually of very 
low impact in terms of people or property) and I have created maps of 
"what is currently flooded" based on current measured level and previous 
observations.  See 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/398374 .


Best Regards,

Andy




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[Tagging] Adding 'flood' as value to the key 'hazard' (to be used in combination with the tag boundary=hazard)

[Cornelia Scholz via Tagging]

Dear all,

I would like to propose to add* 'flood'* as value to the *key 'hazard'* (to
be used in combination with the tag* boundary=hazard*).

Proposal:

Hazard =flood would be used
in combination with boundary=hazard


Area hazards are a sub-group of the values of the key:hazard
 (Proposal
) which
apply to areas already tagged as boundary=hazard. For area hazards of
natural hazards the tags hazard=avalanche
 and
hazard=quicksand
 already
exist. What is currently missing is an option to tag an area hazard as
flood hazard. Therefore, the proposed tag hazard=flood is an addition to
the existing and approved tag boundary=hazard to allow to tag flood hazard
areas.

Rationale:

The intended use of the tag hazard=flood for area hazards is to map areas
where floods  (an overflow of water
that submerges land that is usually dry) occur. The location and extent of
these hazard areas is often well known by local communities with knowledge
of past events. Alternatively, NGOs and national agencies can sometimes
provide information on hazard areas but capturing and mapping community
knowledge of flood occurrences is the preferred use case. The potential use
of the data includes supporting exposure analysis of flood hazards for
disaster risk reduction programs, raising awareness of flood risks,
supporting project plannings of NGOs and local authorities and providing
information on routing in case of flooding.

A valuable addition to the tag would be to add information on the
recurrence of flood extent (return period). The  OpenHazardMap
 suggest following
classification, which is tailored to capture community knowledge:

   -

   < 3 years: any hazard that occurs almost every year (seasonal flood,
   spring avalanche...). Those are very well-known from communities, as they
   impact there life and activities every year)
   -

   3 - 50 years: any hazard that occurs more than once in a lifetime
   -

   > 50 years: any hazard that happens once (or less in a lifetime)

What already exists is the key  flood_prone
=* which is mainly for
roads that are known to be flooded frequently. The mapping descriptions
include instructions for mapping flood prone waterway crossings, bridges,
and highways. However, it is not intended to tag areas, which would be
covered by the proposed new tag of hazard=flood for areas tagged as
boundary=hazard.

The discussed but not approved OpenHazardMap
 project was reviewed as
well. However, since this project suggests introducing a row of entirely
new tags, it was suggestedto rather add a tag hazard=flood to the already
existing and approved key:hazard and boundary=hazard and align with the
existing tags of natural hazards (hazard=avalanche; hazard=quicksand).


Please let me know your thoughts!

Kind regards,

Cornelia
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