Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

If there's a horse riding arena with a roof (with 2 or 3 open walls)
that covers just the riding area, I would probably map a single closed
way with building=roof + leisure=pitch.

If there are other areas under the same roof, like bandstands to watch
the show and changing areas or toilets, it would be idea to map the
area of the pitch and the area of the building=roof separately, and
then I might add covered=yes to the leisure=pitch (though I suppose
this is not strictly necessary).

If there are 4 solid walls, I would use `building=riding_hall` - see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abuilding%3Driding_hall

Re: "How would you tag the covered horse walker (middle one)"

horse_walker + covered=yes, and map the roof separately. You could add
building=roof if it's mapped as an area and the area is the same as
the roof, but in your example the roof is donut-shaped.

On 9/8/19, Hufkratzer  wrote:
> On 08.09.2019 11:41, Warin wrote:
>  > On 07/09/19 19:08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>  >>
>  >> sent from a phone
>  >>> On 7. Sep 2019, at 09:28, Joseph Eisenberg
>  wrote:
>  >>>
>  >>> Per taginfo, building=yes is used 7500 times with leisure=pitch, and
>  >>> covered=yes is used 1017 times, so I suppose it's more common to match
>  >>> the pitch with the same outline as the building rather than using
>  >>> covered=yes and a separate building outline.
>  >>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=pitch#combinations
>  >>
>  >> for German sports halls in schools, tagging a single covered pitch
> would not usually be a nice representation, because these places are
> optimized for versatility: you can do a lot of different sports, and you
> will usually find several overlapping pitches (marked in different
> colors). There will also be equipment for gymnastics (high bar, parallel
> bars, mattresses, ropes, ...) and whatever is taught.
>  >
>  > [...]
>  >
>  > Some outside pitches have a roof over them for sun/rain, so I'd think
> that is where the tag for covered=yes comes from.
>
> How would you tag this covered riding arena? :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjVCeE-4Ht0
>
> leisure=sports_hall + building=sports_hall ?
> leisure=sports_hall + building=roof ?
> leisure=pitch + building=roof ?
> leisure=pitch + covered=yes ? (pitch is covered by what?)
> leisure=pitch + covered=yes + building=roof ? (pitch is covered by roof,
> but that's obvious because of building=roof)
>
> How would you tag the covered horse walker (middle one) on this page? :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:animal=horse_walker
>
> ...=horse_wakler + building=roof ?
> ...=horse_wakler + covered=yes ? (horse_wakler is covered by what?)
> ...=horse_wakler + covered=yes + building=roof ? (horse_wakler is
> covered by roof, but that's obvious because of building=roof)
>
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Hufkratzer]

On 08.09.2019 11:41, Warin wrote:
> On 07/09/19 19:08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>> On 7. Sep 2019, at 09:28, Joseph Eisenberg 
 wrote:

>>>
>>> Per taginfo, building=yes is used 7500 times with leisure=pitch, and
>>> covered=yes is used 1017 times, so I suppose it's more common to match
>>> the pitch with the same outline as the building rather than using
>>> covered=yes and a separate building outline.
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=pitch#combinations
>>
>> for German sports halls in schools, tagging a single covered pitch 
would not usually be a nice representation, because these places are 
optimized for versatility: you can do a lot of different sports, and you 
will usually find several overlapping pitches (marked in different 
colors). There will also be equipment for gymnastics (high bar, parallel 
bars, mattresses, ropes, ...) and whatever is taught.

>
> [...]
>
> Some outside pitches have a roof over them for sun/rain, so I'd think 
that is where the tag for covered=yes comes from.


How would you tag this covered riding arena? :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjVCeE-4Ht0

leisure=sports_hall + building=sports_hall ?
leisure=sports_hall + building=roof ?
leisure=pitch + building=roof ?
leisure=pitch + covered=yes ? (pitch is covered by what?)
leisure=pitch + covered=yes + building=roof ? (pitch is covered by roof, 
but that's obvious because of building=roof)


How would you tag the covered horse walker (middle one) on this page? :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:animal=horse_walker

...=horse_wakler + building=roof ?
...=horse_wakler + covered=yes ? (horse_wakler is covered by what?)
...=horse_wakler + covered=yes + building=roof ? (horse_wakler is 
covered by roof, but that's obvious because of building=roof)


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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Warin]

On 07/09/19 19:08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 7. Sep 2019, at 09:28, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:

Per taginfo, building=yes is used 7500 times with leisure=pitch, and
covered=yes is used 1017 times, so I suppose it's more common to match
the pitch with the same outline as the building rather than using
covered=yes and a separate building outline.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=pitch#combinations


for German sports halls in schools, tagging a single covered pitch would not 
usually be a nice representation, because these places are optimized for 
versatility: you can do a lot of different sports, and you will usually find 
several overlapping pitches (marked in different colors). There will also be 
equipment for gymnastics (high bar, parallel bars, mattresses, ropes, ...) and 
whatever is taught.


I have been mapping overlapping sports pitches for a while now.
All from satellite imagery so outside.

The advantage of mapping them individually is that you can see for one 
configuration if one tennis court is in use you cannot use the netball or 
basketball courts as either tennis court over laps both of them, or the tennis 
court only overlaps one of them leaving the other side free. Of course the 
configuration is fixed by the line makings and equipment provisions.

I don't think there is a way of tagging many of the individual gymnastic 
sports, most can be moved some as fixed.

Different line colours can be mapped as there are tags for it. The basketball 
and netball wiki pages have the tag descriptions for the line marking, hoops 
etc.



Some outside pitches have a roof over them for sun/rain, so I'd think that is 
where the tag for covered=yes comes from.



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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Steve Doerr]

On 07/09/2019 01:33, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Re: > "My UK school had both a gym and a sports hall."

What was the difference between the two? Was the gym like a "fitness
centre" for weight training, perhaps? In US English we tend to use
"gym" for what seems to be a "sports hall" in some dialects, and also
for "weight lifting gyms" and "fitness centres" full of exercise
equipment.


The sports hall was a big echoy place with a concrete floor, on which 
lines were painted in different colours for different sports. You'd use 
the whole space for a game of five-a-side football (soccer) or 
basketball, or else there was room for three or four badminton courts to 
be set up next to each other. Table-tennis tables could also be wheeled 
out, I think.


The gym(nasium) was much smaller, shiny wooden floor, equipped with 
things like a vaulting horse, parallel bars, wall bars and hanging ropes 
for climbing, and there were things like medicine balls and bean bags 
for exercising, rubber mats to put down on the floor etc. Basically for 
gymnastics and general physical exercise, rather than sports as such. No 
exercise *machines* back then, but I see from the school's website that 
has changed a bit: 
https://0e58658be539ee7325a0-220f04f871df648cf4a4d93a111e3366.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/williamson/uploads/asset_image/2_477_e.jpg


--
Steve

---
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 07.09.2019 07:57, Hufkratzer wrote:
Recently you [jesienbe] added to the wiki page for sports_centre that sports halls inside of sports centres 
don't need a leisure tag if the centre is mapped as an area. 


And this is wrong, as it fails the purpose of the leisure=sports_hall tag.

As I remember the tag development, any value like 'gym/gymnasium' was deliberately avoided because 
it has too many different local meanings, ranging from fitness over weightlifting over climbing gym 
over school sport up to the German word for a secondary school itself. [1]


Therefore the slightly more stilted leisure=sports_centre came into use for any facility where 
sports are performed and was widely accepted (183k).


This however led to the situation that
a) a simple school facility with a wooden floor and a changing room is not 
really a 'centre',
b) sport campuses with several buildings for different sports became tagged with 
leisure=sports_centre, and the buildings leisure=sports_centre again, inside of the campus.


The solution was found in 2018 with activating a tag with small usage that time, 
leisure=sports_hall, which solves both cases,

a) having a tag for a small individual facility,
b) having a tag for each of several facilities like the rowing hall, the climbing hall, the ice 
skating hall, you might have on a campus that is a centre for having a multitude of such facilities, 
accompanied by the sports pub.


This tag is growing rapidly since.

Any buildling=* tagging describes the original building typology and is orthogonal to the usage, see 
my other mail.


Please recognise that the world is not black and white, and there is a continuous spectrum of sport 
facility sizes. So while there are examples that are clearly 'just a sports hall' or a 'large 
centre', there will be edge cases, where the hall gets a reception that sells you a coffee, and then 
a little weight-lifting corner, and so on, so an individual decision would have to been made to 
decide to mark that as a hall or a centre.


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Gymnasium

tom

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2019, at 09:28, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
> 
> Per taginfo, building=yes is used 7500 times with leisure=pitch, and
> covered=yes is used 1017 times, so I suppose it's more common to match
> the pitch with the same outline as the building rather than using
> covered=yes and a separate building outline.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=pitch#combinations


for German sports halls in schools, tagging a single covered pitch would not 
usually be a nice representation, because these places are optimized for 
versatility: you can do a lot of different sports, and you will usually find 
several overlapping pitches (marked in different colors). There will also be 
equipment for gymnastics (high bar, parallel bars, mattresses, ropes, ...) and 
whatever is taught.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 7. Sep 2019, at 02:35, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:

>> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well
> 
> Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
> know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
> clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
> that this is the "de facto" meaning.


I have to put the „exactly“ into relation, from my understanding the sports 
centre is a place on its own grounds, maybe outdoor, indoor or both (speaking 
of Rome it will mostly be outdoors), just as Chris wrote, and the sports hall 
is often part of a bigger structure like a school but it could also be part of 
a sports centre, and it might eventually be standalone as well. The main 
difference is that a sports hall is about a single building made for sports, 
often part of a bigger structure (which may not be a sport structure), while a 
sports centre is about a standalone feature in my understanding (but at least 
not in Tübingen as you will see). Unfortunately this reading was not backed up 
by actual mapping in Germany I have looked at, where sports halls had been 
double tagged as sports centres as well, sometimes not even with a specific 
building tag (or with a school building tag on a sports hall building)

eg in Tübingen:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/24921681
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/612606612
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8499979
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44842737
no typological tags in 10 years and 8 versions:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32649732

one sports facility (in Tü) of a school is even tagged as stadium (and school 
building):

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/35741685
but if this is a stadium, most of the others I listed would qualify as well.

no sports related tags at all:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/136783867

These are all public sports facilities of schools.

A privately run sports hall double tagged as sports centre:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/409499240#map=19/48.51061/9.04052

Generally I think we shouldn’t mix up (as it is currently done in the town of 
Tübingen) „general“ sports facilities (which are typically accessible for 
everyone, provided they pay/become member of a sports association), with sports 
facilities in schools, which are at most in certain limited times accessible to 
other people than pupils. But this is wishful thinking, looking at the above 
examples.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Per taginfo, building=yes is used 7500 times with leisure=pitch, and
covered=yes is used 1017 times, so I suppose it's more common to match
the pitch with the same outline as the building rather than using
covered=yes and a separate building outline.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=pitch#combinations

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> how do you recomend to tag a fitness studio inside of a sports centre

Is a "fitness studio" a sports hall? I thought a sports hall was a
building with a large court (leisure=pitch) instead or several courts,
and probably with toilets and changing rooms. Isn't a fitness centre
tagged leisure=fitness_centre instead?

To tag a covered court ("pitch" in OSM) one can use leisure=pitch +
covered=yes, perhaps? I think this is what I've done for basketball
courts and covered futsal fields here, though I might have just mapped
the whole area as leisure=sports_centre and not mapped the court/pitch
specifically.

To me it seems redundant to tag leisure=sports_hall on buildings
inside of a leisure=sports_center, like tagging
"healthcare=hospital_ward" on each building inside of a large medical
center which is already mapped as amenity=hospital. The standard
tagging that is building=hospital, like building=school inside of an
amenity=school area.

While in theory building=school could be reused as a hotel/pub (See
https://www.mcmenamins.com/kennedy-school) in that case the building
will be inside of a tourism=hotel polygon so it's clear that it's no
longer a school.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 9/7/19, Hufkratzer  wrote:
> This is not how the tag is used. It is often used for sports halls of
> sports centers, some examples can be found in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure%3Dsports_hall#Examples_in_the_OSM_database
> .
> The wiki page for sports_hall says "A sports hall can often be found on
> a campus of a school or in a sports centre."
>
> Recently you added to the wiki page for sports_centre that sports halls
> inside of sports centres don't need a leisure tag if the centre is
> mapped as an area. OTOH it says "Use building=* for any buildings which
> are included within the centre. These can be given different sport and
> leisure tags." AFAIK the sport tag always needs a physical tag. Is that
> recent addition compatible with that? Is building=* a physical tag for
> sport=*? It is not listed in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport#Associated_tags .
>
> I think it would be too difficult for mappers to have different tagging
> rules for sports halls inside and outside of sports centres and
> depending on whether the sports center is mapped as a node or an area.
>
> If you do not recommend to tag a sport hall inside of a sports centre
> with a leisure tag how do you recomend to tag a fitness studio inside of
> a sports centre and why?
>
>
> On 07.09.2019 02:35, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>  > (Sent to you directly since I don't want to add too many posts to the
>  > mailing list)
>  >
>  >> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well
>  >
>  > Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
>  > know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
>  > clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
>  > that this is the "de facto" meaning.
>  >
>  > Joseph
>  >
>  > On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>  >>
>  >> sent from a phone
>  >>
>  >>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill  wrote:
>  >>>
>  >>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
>  >>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as
> indoor
>  >>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym
> equipment
>  >>> too.
>  >>>
>  >>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not
> wholly
>  >>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business
> complex. It
>  >>> has more than just a gym room.
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> Cheers Martin
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Hufkratzer]

This is not how the tag is used. It is often used for sports halls of 
sports centers, some examples can be found in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure%3Dsports_hall#Examples_in_the_OSM_database 
.
The wiki page for sports_hall says "A sports hall can often be found on 
a campus of a school or in a sports centre."


Recently you added to the wiki page for sports_centre that sports halls 
inside of sports centres don't need a leisure tag if the centre is 
mapped as an area. OTOH it says "Use building=* for any buildings which 
are included within the centre. These can be given different sport and 
leisure tags." AFAIK the sport tag always needs a physical tag. Is that 
recent addition compatible with that? Is building=* a physical tag for 
sport=*? It is not listed in 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport#Associated_tags .


I think it would be too difficult for mappers to have different tagging 
rules for sports halls inside and outside of sports centres and 
depending on whether the sports center is mapped as a node or an area.


If you do not recommend to tag a sport hall inside of a sports centre 
with a leisure tag how do you recomend to tag a fitness studio inside of 
a sports centre and why?



On 07.09.2019 02:35, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> (Sent to you directly since I don't want to add too many posts to the
> mailing list)
>
>> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well
>
> Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
> know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
> clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
> that this is the "de facto" meaning.
>
> Joseph
>
> On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill  wrote:
>>>
>>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
>>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as 
indoor
>>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym 
equipment

>>> too.
>>>
>>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not 
wholly
>>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business 
complex. It

>>> has more than just a gym room.
>>>
>>
>> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

(Sent to you directly since I don't want to add too many posts to the
mailing list)

> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well

Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
that this is the "de facto" meaning.

Joseph

On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill  wrote:
>>
>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as indoor
>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym equipment
>> too.
>>
>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly
>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. It
>> has more than just a gym room.
>>
>
>

>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: > "My UK school had both a gym and a sports hall."

What was the difference between the two? Was the gym like a "fitness
centre" for weight training, perhaps? In US English we tend to use
"gym" for what seems to be a "sports hall" in some dialects, and also
for "weight lifting gyms" and "fitness centres" full of exercise
equipment.

- Joseph

On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill  wrote:
>>
>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as indoor
>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym equipment
>> too.
>>
>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly
>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. It
>> has more than just a gym room.
>>
>
>
> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill  wrote:
> 
> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own space 
> or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as indoor 
> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym equipment too.
> 
> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly 
> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. It has 
> more than just a gym room.
> 


+1, this is exactly how I see it as well 

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Steve Doerr]

My UK school had both a gym and a sports hall. And neither was used for 
the morning assembly: there was a main hall (with a stage) for that, 
which was also used for serving school dinners at lunchtime.


Steve


On 05/09/2019 16:21, Philip Barnes wrote:

In terms of schools, we call them gyms in the UK too.

Certainly not sports halls.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Thursday, 5 September 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

What is a sports hall?

Is it what we call a "gym" in America?

The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
the situation.

I don't see how that is different than the definition of
sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
building".

I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.

On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)

346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
in early 2018, thus about
15 times.

It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.


leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.

No. You cannot add the value to the same key.

The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
were incorrectly tagged
leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
certainly are not 'centres'.



However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
through the proposal process or should become commonly used
organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.

If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
hurt.


So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
found in a sports_centre?

More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
more halls.


Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
area?

Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
describes the usage.
Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: "A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not
wholly about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business
complex."

That's a useful definition.

Can anyone confirm if this is how it's being used? I believe most of
the original discussion was about features in Germany (Sporthallen?) -
I think these are the same as a school Gymnasium in the USA, but I'm
not sure.

I'm just concerned that with the current lack of definition on the
wiki page, people will start using it for features that are normally
tagged as sports centres in a single building, like a dedicated futsal
centre in Brazil or an indoor tennis centre in Indonesia, where words
like "sports hall" and "sports centre" may have no clear translation
into the local language.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 9/6/19, Chris Hill  wrote:
> On 05/09/2019 23:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 03:08, Chris Hill > > wrote:
>>
>> It's a sports hall I think because it is marked out for various
>> indoor sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball,
>> 5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when
>> needed.
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Chris, that's what I was remembering from schools in
>> Australia, but they weren't called a sports hall - usually Assembly
>> Hall, as that's where the School assembles to be addressed by the
>> principal.
>>
>> Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph
>> quoted above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where
>> sports take place within an enclosed area" - which then specifically
>> mentions "it can be a building"."?
>>
>>
> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as
> indoor provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym
> equipment too.
>
> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly
> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex.
> It has more than just a gym room.
>
> This is just my interpretation and I don't think agonising over precise
> meanings is that useful. I am, however strongly against homogenising the
> database. If someone describes a place as a sports hall I am strongly
> against someone overwriting that as a sports centre when they have no
> local knowledge, but just want to impose a structure to the data that
> doesn't actually exist. We are describing the real world which is messy,
> has contradictions and inconsistencies and which we will never ever get
> right with homogenous lists and restrictions. I say there as sports
> halls and sports centres and there is easily room for both.
>
> --
> cheers
> Chris Hill (chillly)
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Chris Hill]

On 05/09/2019 23:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 03:08, Chris Hill > wrote:


It's a sports hall I think because it is marked out for various
indoor sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball,
5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when
needed.


Thanks, Chris, that's what I was remembering from schools in 
Australia, but they weren't called a sports hall - usually Assembly 
Hall, as that's where the School assembles to be addressed by the 
principal.


Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph 
quoted above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where 
sports take place within an enclosed area" - which then specifically 
mentions "it can be a building"."?



To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own 
space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as 
indoor provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym 
equipment too.


A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly 
about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. 
It has more than just a gym room.


This is just my interpretation and I don't think agonising over precise 
meanings is that useful. I am, however strongly against homogenising the 
database. If someone describes a place as a sports hall I am strongly 
against someone overwriting that as a sports centre when they have no 
local knowledge, but just want to impose a structure to the data that 
doesn't actually exist. We are describing the real world which is messy, 
has contradictions and inconsistencies and which we will never ever get 
right with homogenous lists and restrictions. I say there as sports 
halls and sports centres and there is easily room for both.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 at 23:30, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph quoted
> above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place
> within an enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
> building"."?
>

I try to avoid all sport.  Participating in, watching it, or reading about
it.  So I claim no expertise
in all this.  However, the distinction that occurs to me is this.  A sports
centre has several (at
least two) distinct areas in which different sports activities can occur
simultaneously.  It
might be tennis, soccer and chess, or three separate soccer games, or
whatever.
Somewhere like a village hall or even a leisure centre might have a sports
hall within it:
it's not a sports centre but it has an area dedicated to one or more
sports.  It might even have
more than one sports hall, but it's not  a sports centre because it does
non-sport things too
(like maybe show films, as several village halls near me do).

Something along those lines is about the only reason I can see for having
both tags.
Thinking about it, a sports centre could have several sports halls mapped
within it if
you wanted to map it to that level of detail.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong.  In which case, carry on arguing.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 03:08, Chris Hill  wrote:

> It's a sports hall I think because it is marked out for various indoor
> sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball,
> 5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when
> needed.


Thanks, Chris, that's what I was remembering from schools in Australia, but
they weren't called a sports hall - usually Assembly Hall, as that's where
the School assembles to be addressed by the principal.

Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph quoted
above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place
within an enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
building"."?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Chris Hill]

The school, in the UK, that I went to over 40 years ago, had a sports 
hall then and still does today. It's a sports hall I think because it is 
marked out for various indoor sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball, 
5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when 
needed. Next door was a swimming pool (now sadly no longer there - I 
walked for hundreds of sponsored miles to help build that pool which the 
Academy decided 35 years later was too expensive to maintain).


The school also had a gym when I attended. It was much smaller and much 
older than the sports hall. It had wall bars, ropes and other gym 
equipment of the day. The gym was used as an exam hall at some times of 
year. The gym is no more.


So I think there is a place for both, but as always, local knowledge 
helps in building accurate map data.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


On 05/09/2019 16:21, Philip Barnes wrote:

In terms of schools, we call them gyms in the UK too.

Certainly not sports halls.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Thursday, 5 September 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

What is a sports hall?

Is it what we call a "gym" in America?

The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
the situation.

I don't see how that is different than the definition of
sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
building".

I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.

On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)

346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
in early 2018, thus about
15 times.

It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.


leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.

No. You cannot add the value to the same key.

The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
were incorrectly tagged
leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
certainly are not 'centres'.



However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
through the proposal process or should become commonly used
organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.

If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
hurt.


So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
found in a sports_centre?

More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
more halls.


Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
area?

Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
describes the usage.
Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.

tom




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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Philip Barnes]

In terms of schools, we call them gyms in the UK too. 

Certainly not sports halls.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Thursday, 5 September 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> What is a sports hall?
> 
> Is it what we call a "gym" in America?
> 
> The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
> for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
> building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
> the situation.
> 
> I don't see how that is different than the definition of
> sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
> enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
> building".
> 
> I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
> either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
> enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.
> 
> On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
> > On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> >> Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
> >
> > 346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
> > in early 2018, thus about
> > 15 times.
> >
> > It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.
> >
> >> leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.
> >
> > No. You cannot add the value to the same key.
> >
> > The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
> > were incorrectly tagged
> > leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
> > certainly are not 'centres'.
> >
> >
> >> However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
> >> through the proposal process or should become commonly used
> >> organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.
> >
> > If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
> > A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
> > hurt.
> >
> >> So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
> >> found in a sports_centre?
> >
> > More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
> > Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
> > more halls.
> >
> >> Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
> >> area?
> >
> > Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
> > describes the usage.
> > Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
> > leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
> > church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.
> >
> > tom
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

What is a sports hall?

Is it what we call a "gym" in America?

The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
the situation.

I don't see how that is different than the definition of
sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
building".

I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.

On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
> On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
>
> 346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
> in early 2018, thus about
> 15 times.
>
> It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.
>
>> leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.
>
> No. You cannot add the value to the same key.
>
> The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
> were incorrectly tagged
> leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
> certainly are not 'centres'.
>
>
>> However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
>> through the proposal process or should become commonly used
>> organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.
>
> If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
> A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
> hurt.
>
>> So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
>> found in a sports_centre?
>
> More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
> Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
> more halls.
>
>> Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
>> area?
>
> Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
> describes the usage.
> Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
> leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
> church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.
>
> tom
>
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Re: [Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)


346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22 in early 2018, thus about 
15 times.


It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.


leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.


No. You cannot add the value to the same key.

The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that were incorrectly tagged 
leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which certainly are not 'centres'.




However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
through the proposal process or should become commonly used
organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.


If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot hurt.


So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
found in a sports_centre?


More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or more 
halls.


Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole area?


Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=* 
describes the usage.
Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted 
church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.


tom

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[Tagging] Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.

However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
through the proposal process or should become commonly used
organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.

Also, it's not clear to me why it would be beneficial to add the tag
leisure=sports_hall; it's definition seems to overlap with many types
of sports centres:

"leisure=sports_hall can be used for a building or an area within a
larger building that is used as a sports hall. The tag can be used for
all kinds of sports halls where no other tag (e.g.
leisure=bowling_alley, leisure=ice_rink, leisure=fitness_centre or
leisure=sports_centre) is more appropriate"

So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
found in a sports_centre?

Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole area?

- Joseph

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