Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On 15 November 2013 01:22, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 November 2013 11:54, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Hmm, difficult to get the difference right. How would you call a place with video games and pinball machines? What if there are also claw cranes? I'd call it an amusement arcade, but that's probably just a local term. Also games arcade. I'm fine with using leisure=amusement_arcade for places in which you can play video games and pinball etc. I think that would be widely understood. Are there in fact countries where there are distinct places for gambling machines and gaming machines? Yes. In Queensland, Australia (other states may have slightly different rules) they are very distinct. Ok, that convinces me that we indeed need different tags. The only thing we need now is a name for places with gambling machines. However, just confuse things, the gambling machines are officially known as Gaming machines here, and their location is know as a Gaming room. I would also be afraid that something like leisure=gaming_room would cause confusion. The legal term in the UK for gaming rooms seems to be 'Adult Gaming Centre'. It is also the term that Cashino, a chain of such places, uses to refer to themselves. Is this a known term? Would leisure=adult_gaming_centre work, or does anyone have a better proposal? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
2013/11/14 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Hmm, difficult to get the difference right. How would you call a place with video games and pinball machines? What if there are also claw cranes? I would draw the line when you can get more money (in cash) for less money. Getting a toy if you manage to claw it is a form of gamble, but then a restaurant is also a gamble because you can get a bad meal or a great meal for the same money. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
2013/11/14 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com Hmm, difficult to get the difference right. How would you call a place with video games and pinball machines? What if there are also claw cranes? I would draw the line when you can get more money (in cash) for less money. Getting a toy if you manage to claw it is a form of gamble, but then a restaurant is also a gamble because you can get a bad meal or a great meal for the same money. +1 Note that in some countries like Germany there will always be also video arcades or other games that don't allow to win money because there is a law that requests for any number of x gambling machines also one machine where you can't win (money). You don't have this necessarily in pubs (because I think if they only put 2 gambling machines they do not have to, maybe 2 is also the absolute limit for a pub in order not to be classified as a gambling place (and hence they would have to close at 10pm and couldn't sell alcoholic drinks any more)). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On 14 November 2013 11:54, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nlwrote: Hmm, difficult to get the difference right. How would you call a place with video games and pinball machines? What if there are also claw cranes? I'd call it an amusement arcade, but that's probably just a local term. Also games arcade. Are there in fact countries where there are distinct places for gambling machines and gaming machines? Yes. In Queensland, Australia (other states may have slightly different rules) they are very distinct. However, just confuse things, the gambling machines are officially known as Gaming machines here, and their location is know as a Gaming room. Generally they are called pokies or poker machines, though, no matter what type of gambling it actually is. Gambling machines must be licensed (and there a limited number of licences for the entire state) and can only be found in casinos or in Gaming rooms in clubs or pubs. These locations are restricted by age, and always licensed premises (can serve alcohol). I've never heard of video (non-gambling) games being in one of these rooms. Non gambling machines, which include games where you get tickets/points for doing well that you can trade for prizes, are in Amusement arcades, which are often in shopping centres, near cinemas, etc. They are often have games designed for children, there are no age restrictions, and the machines do not need to be licensed in any way. Perhaps game arcade is also be a useful term? For the Americans on the list: Dave and Buster's and Chucke E. Cheese are mentioned on the wiki as examples of video arcades. What kind of games do these places offer? I suppose no gambling? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging On 14 November 2013 11:54, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nlwrote: On 11 November 2013 18:02, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 17:50 +0100, fly wrote: What I miss so far is a way to better describe what kind of gambling is possible, no weather what kind of place it is, similar to gambling=* Do we need a tag for each machines ? How do I tag a bar with some machines ? a backdoor room ? I agree that that would be useful to have, but I would prefer to leave it out of the scope of this proposal. I think it is important to first have the main type of venues right. After that we can always define new tags for slot machines in pubs, etc. The proposal is already quite big, so I think we should not increase the scope of the proposal for now. I would agree here, playing for pleasure does need to be distinguished from gambling. Gambling will imply age restrictions on entry, whereas playing video games does not. Hmm, difficult to get the difference right. How would you call a place with video games and pinball machines? What if there are also claw cranes? Are there in fact countries where there are distinct places for gambling machines and gaming machines? Perhaps game arcade is also be a useful term? For the Americans on the list: Dave and Buster's and Chucke E. Cheese are mentioned on the wiki as examples of video arcades. What kind of games do these places offer? I suppose no gambling? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On 11 November 2013 18:02, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 17:50 +0100, fly wrote: What I miss so far is a way to better describe what kind of gambling is possible, no weather what kind of place it is, similar to gambling=* Do we need a tag for each machines ? How do I tag a bar with some machines ? a backdoor room ? I agree that that would be useful to have, but I would prefer to leave it out of the scope of this proposal. I think it is important to first have the main type of venues right. After that we can always define new tags for slot machines in pubs, etc. The proposal is already quite big, so I think we should not increase the scope of the proposal for now. I would agree here, playing for pleasure does need to be distinguished from gambling. Gambling will imply age restrictions on entry, whereas playing video games does not. Hmm, difficult to get the difference right. How would you call a place with video games and pinball machines? What if there are also claw cranes? Are there in fact countries where there are distinct places for gambling machines and gaming machines? Perhaps game arcade is also be a useful term? For the Americans on the list: Dave and Buster's and Chucke E. Cheese are mentioned on the wiki as examples of video arcades. What kind of games do these places offer? I suppose no gambling? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On 10.11.2013 23:28, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 3 November 2013 15:58, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=* should be used. I agree, I will move amusement_arcade to the leisure key. However, I will leave casino in the amenity key, as moving it to the leisure key seems too much trouble (mainly for data consumers) for too little gain. Do not think that video_arcade and amusement_arcade need to be the same. For me, video sound more like a place to play video games and not about gambling. I would like to distinguish between these arcades. What I miss so far is a way to better describe what kind of gambling is possible, no weather what kind of place it is, similar to gambling=* Do we need a tag for each machines ? How do I tag a bar with some machines ? a backdoor room ? my 2 cents fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 17:50 +0100, fly wrote: On 10.11.2013 23:28, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 3 November 2013 15:58, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=* should be used. I agree, I will move amusement_arcade to the leisure key. However, I will leave casino in the amenity key, as moving it to the leisure key seems too much trouble (mainly for data consumers) for too little gain. Do not think that video_arcade and amusement_arcade need to be the same. For me, video sound more like a place to play video games and not about gambling. I would like to distinguish between these arcades. What I miss so far is a way to better describe what kind of gambling is possible, no weather what kind of place it is, similar to gambling=* Do we need a tag for each machines ? How do I tag a bar with some machines ? a backdoor room ? I would agree here, playing for pleasure does need to be distinguished from gambling. Gambling will imply age restrictions on entry, whereas playing video games does not. When I was growing up the age limit was not enforced, but it is now. It has been a long time since I have been into an arcade, but I would imagine they have been divided in some way so as not to restrict the whole premises to the legal gambling age. Anybody like to comment? An age limit tag will also be useful, it is not helpful to tag video games, if the age of entry is restricted to gambling age people. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On 11 November 2013 18:02, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 17:50 +0100, fly wrote: I would agree here, playing for pleasure does need to be distinguished from gambling. Gambling will imply age restrictions on entry, whereas playing video games does not. Under German regulation, games like pinball are only for over 18. So in Germany, this distinction does not really make sense, but I can imagine it does in other countries. What do we do with places offering both? Wikipedia does not distinguish between amusement arcades and video arcades, by the way. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
2013/11/11 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Under German regulation, games like pinball are only for over 18. There is AFAIK no (age) limit for playing pinballs in Germany, you only have to find them ;-) There is regulation for video games, they have to be classified as suitable for the age (while 20 years ago you had to be at least 16): http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/juschg/__13.html cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On 5 November 2013 00:18, Martin Koppenhöfer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 03.11.2013 um 13:10 schrieb Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. I'm not sure if requiring a table game is a good idea, IIRR in Monte Carlo you can find casinos with only slot machines, but they won't qualify (iMHO) as gambling arcades as the wins and losses can be very high It seems that in Monaco, the casinos without table games are still called arcades: The gambling industry plays a major role in Monaco’s economy. There are 3 land-based casinos in this tiny state, all located in Monte-Carlo. Gaming arcades are also available, such as the modern gaming area on the first floor of the famous La Rascasse club. http://www.casinoseurope.com/monaco/ In Las Vegas, people make the distinction as well: A casino is a place with table games, not just slots/video poker. Otherwise every convenience store in town would be considered a casino. http://vegasclick.com/vegas/casinos.html I therefore propose leaving the definitions as they are. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Am 05.11.2013 um 22:14 schrieb Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: And what is the opinion of other users about moving casino into the leisure tag space? I don't see any advantage. Leisure so far was used mostly for sport related places, parks, nature reserves and playgrounds, generally casinos and even more gambling and betting places don't fit so nicely in IMHO and people would probably expect it in amenity, because most stuff is in amenity. Don't know what the problem would be that amenity is said to be overcrowded or full ;-) Anyway, any tag that can be established is fine in the end, so it doesn't really matter as long as people are OK with it and it fits sufficiently into the rest of the system in order to avoid confusion among the mappers. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Am 03.11.2013 um 13:10 schrieb Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. I'm not sure if requiring a table game is a good idea, IIRR in Monte Carlo you can find casinos with only slot machines, but they won't qualify (iMHO) as gambling arcades as the wins and losses can be very high Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Dear all, Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal includes the following tags: - shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events at agreed upon odds. - shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets. - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. - amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines. - amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker, lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade. - leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead. - shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. - shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling for the full proposal. I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or on the discussion page. In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples on the wiki-page. With kind regards, Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Hey Matthijs and the all others I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=* should be used. cheers fly Am 03.11.2013 13:10, schrieb Matthijs Melissen: Dear all, Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal includes the following tags: - shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events at agreed upon odds. - shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets. - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. - amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines. - amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker, lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade. - leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead. - shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. - shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling for the full proposal. I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or on the discussion page. In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples on the wiki-page. With kind regards, Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Wow, a very well documented RFC! Thanks in advance for your time and effort on this. Will read it and comment where appropriate. http://bigfatfrog67.me On 03/11/2013 12:10, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Dear all, Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal includes the following tags: - shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events at agreed upon odds. - shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets. - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. - amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines. - amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker, lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade. - leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead. - shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. - shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling for the full proposal. I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or on the discussion page. In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples on the wiki-page. With kind regards, Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 11:58 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=* should be used. +1 To spur the discussion on which key to use here are some numbers from Taginfo for the value *=casino: amenity=casino/Casino 1123 lesiure=casino 69 gambling=casino 60 shop=casino/Casino 25 tourism=casino/Casino = 11 amusement=casino 1 attraction=casino 1 entertainment=casino 1 amenity=casino is the most used tag by far, but I think that is because amenity=* seems to be the default key for any undocumented object and not because amenity=casino is the best tag to use. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
