Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
Hi, I disagree here as it's highly dependant of the type of POI. This default might be a correct assumption for shops (in countries where that's the case), but not for - restaurants (as well as fast food, to stay in the OSM nomenclature) - hotels - fuels - swimming pools - casinos - ... Therefore a general assumption IMHO is more often wrong than right. regards Peter Am 30.04.2015 um 15:18 schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider: Hi everyone As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most opening_hours values during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about this? [1]: https://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2015/04/wochenaufgabe-oeffnungszeiten/#comment-143413 [2]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_default_PH_off ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
On May 1, 2015, at 8:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 30.04.2015 um 18:04 schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk: It really makes more problems than it solves +1 +1 cheers Martin +1 In Japan the public holidays are very very well defined (the calendar holiday days are red on all calendars) - but wether that means the business is closed or not is not something that can be inferred. However, many civic offices and businesses note if they take “holidays” off on their front window. But how to turn that into data parseable by a program might have to be left to the data customer, who hopefully would know the calendar set int he country they’re getting data for. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Robin `ypid` Schneider ypi...@aol.de wrote: They should be covered for all US states [2]. It has been noted that the US has multiple holidays. Is that like the bank holidays in the UK? It might be worth to defined them. Problem is they vary so damn much. Nobody seems to be able to decide whether Robert E. Lee Day should be celebrated or not, or even what month it falls on, much less whether it happens on the same day of the week or the same day of the month each year. A similar but more visible issue comes up with Columbus Day: Despite being a federal holiday, it's not uniformly observed nationwide (and some places (including Seattle) that previously opted not to observe it have since started observing Native American Day or Aboriginal Day on the same date instead), a situation that gets reproduced as well with Martin Luther King, Jr. Day: I didn't even know it was a day people actually get off for until I left Oregon, it's about as relevant in that state as it is in rural Russia. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
On Thu, 2015-04-30 at 17:11 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote: In the USA, there aren't any public holidays on a national scale on which businesses are required to close. I don't know of any such laws on a state scale, but I am not familiar with the laws of all 50 states. Liquor stores in Texas are not allowed to open on Sundays or Christmas Day (possibly other holidays as well). Some other states probably still have this antiquated relic of the immediate post-Prohibition era as well. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 5:11 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In the USA, there aren't any public holidays on a national scale on which businesses are required to close. Businesses aren't the only things with opening hours. That said, there's a different and similar problem encountered: Just about every jurisdiction has different holidays. For example, not all Oklahoma Department of Revenue offices are open statewide if the day lands on a tribal holiday where it's located, tribal government offices (except the US Bureau of Indian Affairs) are closed on tribal holidays but not necessarily federal or state holidays; likewise, the BIA is open on tribal holidays but closed on federal. Some states require liquor stores, banks and government offices to close on election day, others don't. The list goes on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
Am 30.04.2015 um 18:28 schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider ypi...@aol.de: . I expect that most countries have something like public holidays and that most amenities are closed on those days. not only countries, also regions and even cities/municipalities can have their public holidays, but assuming that most amenities will be closed on these days is indeed German centric ;-) Furthermore implicit values always bear the risk that the mapper wasn't aware of it, and that you can't see whether the data is incomplete or the default should apply, so it's generally a bad concept for a crowd sourced project like ours cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
Am 30.04.2015 um 18:04 schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk: It really makes more problems than it solves +1 +1 cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
Hi everyone As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most opening_hours values during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about this? [1]: https://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2015/04/wochenaufgabe-oeffnungszeiten/#comment-143413 [2]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_default_PH_off -- Live long and prosper Robin Schneider signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
On 30.04.2015 18:04, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Thu Apr 30 16:40:25 2015 GMT+0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider ypi...@aol.de wrote: Hi everyone As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most opening_hours values during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about this? Don't be German-centric :-P (I know that basically everything closes on public holidays in Germany). It really is another hoop to jump through, another thing that we impose on data consumers of this already potentially (edge cases) very elaborated tag. And while a notion of SH/PH is rather well defined for a mapper in given country, default closure in these days may be not. Another table to maintain. It really makes more problems than it solves: is PH off supposed to apply also to 24/7 features? E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM. No as already documented under Example Description. PH off for 24/7 would make no sense. +1 You would also have to define which public holidays, in the Uk Christmas Day and Easter Sunday have restrictions, other public holidays are at the businesses discretion and will vary from year to year. Phil (trigpoint ) The definition of the public holidays is done once in the software which parses the opening_hours value. See https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js#holidays I understand your concerns. The reason for this proposal is to define a better default. I expect that most countries have something like public holidays and that most amenities are closed on those days. Regarding the UK. The public holiday definition is still an open issue. Please consider adding them to opening_hours.js. Also [bank holidays][BH] need to be defined then. E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM. That is a good point which I want to find out in this discussion. In my initial proposal I suggested to apply the implicit PH off to all objects with opening_hours. In case we come up with the opinion that this proposal is ok, but only for amenity=* and shop=* for example, I am not sure if I would still propose the implicit PH off then because this might be too much rules. PS: Sorry for the double post … Not sure why the * my Thunderbird does this. [BH]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#BH.3F -- Live long and prosper Robin Schneider signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
In the USA, there aren't any public holidays on a national scale on which businesses are required to close. I don't know of any such laws on a state scale, but I am not familiar with the laws of all 50 states. Government agencies tend to close on Federal holidays, and on some state holidays, varying agency by agency and state by state. For private businesses, it is the employer's decision. Retail businesses tend to hold special sales on days when many people will be off from work. On April 30, 2015 11:04:07 AM CDT, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Thu Apr 30 16:40:25 2015 GMT+0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider ypi...@aol.de wrote: Hi everyone As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most opening_hours values during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about this? Don't be German-centric :-P (I know that basically everything closes on public holidays in Germany). It really is another hoop to jump through, another thing that we impose on data consumers of this already potentially (edge cases) very elaborated tag. And while a notion of SH/PH is rather well defined for a mapper in given country, default closure in these days may be not. Another table to maintain. It really makes more problems than it solves: is PH off supposed to apply also to 24/7 features? E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM. +1 You would also have to define which public holidays, in the Uk Christmas Day and Easter Sunday have restrictions, other public holidays are at the businesses discretion and will vary from year to year. Phil (trigpoint ) -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider ypi...@aol.de wrote: Hi everyone As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most opening_hours values during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about this? Don't be German-centric :-P (I know that basically everything closes on public holidays in Germany). It really is another hoop to jump through, another thing that we impose on data consumers of this already potentially (edge cases) very elaborated tag. And while a notion of SH/PH is rather well defined for a mapper in given country, default closure in these days may be not. Another table to maintain. It really makes more problems than it solves: is PH off supposed to apply also to 24/7 features? E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM. Michał ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
On Thu Apr 30 16:40:25 2015 GMT+0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider ypi...@aol.de wrote: Hi everyone As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most opening_hours values during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about this? Don't be German-centric :-P (I know that basically everything closes on public holidays in Germany). It really is another hoop to jump through, another thing that we impose on data consumers of this already potentially (edge cases) very elaborated tag. And while a notion of SH/PH is rather well defined for a mapper in given country, default closure in these days may be not. Another table to maintain. It really makes more problems than it solves: is PH off supposed to apply also to 24/7 features? E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM. +1 You would also have to define which public holidays, in the Uk Christmas Day and Easter Sunday have restrictions, other public holidays are at the businesses discretion and will vary from year to year. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
