Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Aviation obstacle light

[John Willis]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:27 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> airmark:light I think is better. 

there are already approach lights, PAPI lights, etc. I think saying that these 
are obstacle / hazard warning lights is appropriate. 

Beyond mapping runways and terminal buildings, The airmark stuff is very 
specific because people flying planes all use extremely specific language for 
things to avoid confusion. 

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Aviation obstacle light

[NKA mapper]

Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:27:42 +1100
From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>

>* > conditional tagging could be used ..
*>* > light_source:conditional=high intensity flashing white
*>* > light at sunrise-sunset:low intensity flashing red light at
sunset-sunrise*

> The day/night is the conditional thing .. and there is already a syntax
> for that. So no need to invent another syntax to do the same job in a
> different way.

What I wanted to avoid is the long "high intensity flashing white
light" part where alle attributes are combined into one line. The
conditional part would work, and I am fine with that (although I have
only seen it for opening hours and for access so far). It would look
like this:

   airmark=obstacle_light

   + airmark:light:colour:conditional=white@sunrise-sunset;red@sunset-sunrise

   + airmark:light:character=flashing

   + airmark:light:intensity:conditional=high@sunrise-sunset;low@sunset-sunrise

In most cases tagging will be a lot simpler, for example for an
ordinary steady red light:

airmark=obstacle_light

+ airmark:light:colour=red

+ airmark:light:character=fixed

> The syntax for the light ... has that not already been done for seamark?

Yes, and I am modeling the proposal on that. Several (sub)keys are
used to fully describe all attributes of the light.

> As the obstacle is not being tagged - leave that word out. What is being
> tagged is a warning light for aircraft .. so airmark:light I think is
> better.

I am fine with that. We still need to have airmark=obstacle_light in
the first line in the examples above because there are many other
different aeronautical lights, and we need to denote that the light is
marking an obstacle. The other attributes could use the airmark:light
key, as in the examples above.

I will copy your input to the discussion page for the proposal to keep
all comments in one place.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Aviation obstacle light

[Warin]

On 07-Mar-18 08:55 PM, NKA mapper wrote:
Thank you for you comments, Warin. Please see my discussion inserted 
below.



Wed, 7 Mar 2018 08:48:22 +1100
From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com >

> The obstacle is not the light, but the light is used to mark it.
> Perhaps air_obstacle=tower/line (thinking of power and communication
> lines as well as towers)
> If you want to identify air obstacles, if you only want to identify
> those obstacles that have identifiers then

You are right, the light is not the obstacle. However, I am not trying 
to tag nor identify all the obstacles. All the obstacles are already 
defined in OSM as man_made=tower, man_made=mast, man_made=chimney, 
building=* etc. I would just like to tag the warning light on the 
obstacle - that is the scope of the proposal. A previous proposal some 
years ago tried to identify the man_made features as aviation 
obstacles, but it met considerable resistance and failed.


> Some of these have lights, some have no lights. Some lines have soccer
> ball things in bright colours.
> For that maybe airmark:light=yes/flashing_red/* airmark:ball=red/*

Correct, many obstacles are required to be marked with paint for 
daylight identification, typically aviation red/white horizontal 
stripes. Power lines across gorges may be required to have "soccer 
balls". However, in this proposal I only focus on the lights.


Good. But consider the future extension to 'soccer balls' and maybe 
other things.

I think what you want is something like airmark:light=*


> conditional tagging could be used ..
> light_source:conditional=high intensity flashing white
> light@sunrise-sunset:low intensity flashing red light@sunset-sunrise
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions 



Yes, I am sure this approach would be possible. However, combining all 
the various attributes (colour, intensity, character, day/night, ICAO 
type, multiple) into one line would lead to a complicated syntax 
without any error checking in the editors and with a high probability 
of getting it wrong.
The day/night is the conditional thing .. and there is already a syntax 
for that. So no need to invent another syntax to do the same job in a 
different way.


The syntax for the light ... has that not already been done for seamark?


For certain obstacles, such as light masts around a stadium, it would 
be necessary to use the light tag for the main (flood)light on the 
mast and the obstacle_light tag (or airmark:light tag) for the 
(flashing red) warning light on top of the mast. Also, all the 
obstacles close to the sea already have a defined scheme for tagging 
the various light attributes in the seamark:light feature, which I try 
to build on in the proposal.


As the obstacle is not being tagged - leave that word out. What is being 
tagged is a warning light for aircraft .. so airmark:light I think is 
better.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Aviation obstacle light

[NKA mapper]

Thank you for you comments, Warin. Please see my discussion inserted below.


Wed, 7 Mar 2018 08:48:22 +1100
From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>

> The obstacle is not the light, but the light is used to mark it.
> Perhaps air_obstacle=tower/line (thinking of power and communication
> lines as well as towers)
> If you want to identify air obstacles, if you only want to identify
> those obstacles that have identifiers then

You are right, the light is not the obstacle. However, I am not trying to
tag nor identify all the obstacles. All the obstacles are already defined
in OSM as man_made=tower, man_made=mast, man_made=chimney, building=* etc.
I would just like to tag the warning light on the obstacle - that is the
scope of the proposal. A previous proposal some years ago tried to identify
the man_made features as aviation obstacles, but it met considerable
resistance and failed.

> Some of these have lights, some have no lights. Some lines have soccer
> ball things in bright colours.
> For that maybe airmark:light=yes/flashing_red/* airmark:ball=red/*

Correct, many obstacles are required to be marked with paint for daylight
identification, typically aviation red/white horizontal stripes. Power
lines across gorges may be required to have "soccer balls". However, in
this proposal I only focus on the lights.

> conditional tagging could be used ..
> light_source:conditional=high intensity flashing white
> light@sunrise-sunset:low intensity flashing red light@sunset-sunrise
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions

Yes, I am sure this approach would be possible. However, combining all the
various attributes (colour, intensity, character, day/night, ICAO type,
multiple) into one line would lead to a complicated syntax without any
error checking in the editors and with a high probability of getting it
wrong.

For certain obstacles, such as light masts around a stadium, it would be
necessary to use the light tag for the main (flood)light on the mast and
the obstacle_light tag (or airmark:light tag) for the (flashing red)
warning light on top of the mast. Also, all the obstacles close to the sea
already have a defined scheme for tagging the various light attributes in
the seamark:light feature, which I try to build on in the proposal.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Aviation obstacle light

[Warin]

On 07-Mar-18 04:00 AM, NKA mapper wrote:
This is a request for comments on a new feature for /aviation obstacle 
lights /:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Aviation_Obstacle_Light 



I am planning an import of mobile/cell towers in Norway. The dataset 
is based on a public database for obstacles to aircrafts, containing 
all vertical structures above a certain height. The dataset also 
contains information on warning lights on those structures, such as 
"flashing red light" or "low intensity ICAO type A light". There are 
similar datasets available in the US and elsewhere. I was unable to 
find a way to tag the lights and therefore I am proposing the new 
feature /*airmark=obstacle_light*/.



The obstacle is not the light, but the light is used to mark it.
Perhaps air_obstacle=tower/line (thinking of power and communication 
lines as well as towers)
If you want to identify air obstacles, if you only want to identify 
those obstacles that have identifiers then


Some of these have lights, some have no lights. Some lines have soccer 
ball things in bright colours.

For that maybe airmark:light=yes/flashing_red/* airmark:ball=red/*


I did consider the proposed /light_source=*/ feature, however it was 
not possible to tag dual day/night warning lights, such as "high 
intensity flashing white light at daytime/low intensity flashing red 
light at nighttime". Also, for high light masts (at for example 
stadiums), bridges, certain towers etc there was anyway a need to tag 
the main light on the structure and the warning light separately.


conditional tagging could be used ..
light_source:conditional=high intensity flashing white 
light@sunrise-sunset:low intensity flashing red light@sunset-sunrise

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions


The proposal is based on how obstacle lights are coded by ICAO, FAA 
and other national aviation regulators. The tagging structure is built 
on concepts from the /seamark:light/ tags and it is kept as general as 
possible in order to be reusable for other kinds of aviation lights 
such as aerodrome beacons 
.


I have no experience with flight simulators, which could be one of the 
use cases for this tag, so I am particularly interested in comments 
from the flight simulator and aviation communities.


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[Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Aviation obstacle light

[NKA mapper]

This is a request for comments on a new feature for *aviation obstacle
lights *:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/
Aviation_Obstacle_Light

I am planning an import of mobile/cell towers in Norway. The dataset is
based on a public database for obstacles to aircrafts, containing all
vertical structures above a certain height. The dataset also contains
information on warning lights on those structures, such as "flashing red
light" or "low intensity ICAO type A light". There are similar datasets
available in the US and elsewhere. I was unable to find a way to tag the
lights and therefore I am proposing the new feature *airmark=obstacle_light*
.

I did consider the proposed *light_source=** feature, however it was not
possible to tag dual day/night warning lights, such as "high intensity
flashing white light at daytime/low intensity flashing red light at
nighttime". Also, for high light masts (at for example stadiums), bridges,
certain towers etc there was anyway a need to tag the main light on the
structure and the warning light separately.

The proposal is based on how obstacle lights are coded by ICAO, FAA and
other national aviation regulators. The tagging structure is built on
concepts from the *seamark:light* tags and it is kept as general as
possible in order to be reusable for other kinds of aviation lights
such as aerodrome
beacons .

I have no experience with flight simulators, which could be one of the use
cases for this tag, so I am particularly interested in comments from the
flight simulator and aviation communities.
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