Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
> On Jan 21, 2020, at 12:04 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > > if the sheets are the topmost thing before the air of the atmosphere, surface > would be fine as an FYI, I am only interested in mapping any of these types of things if they are clearly visible all the time and installed permanently (present year to year), as they are a visible. somethign that would go in the surface= tag. Most farming plastic (like the ones used to grow vegetables) is not mappable, as it is only present 3 months of the year and is constantly changing location in a farm field year to year. Similarly, if a soil stabilizer / sheeting / plastic is permanently visible on the surface it should be mapped as a surface, but if it is buried and not visible - like most landscaping paper buried in the ground - then it should rightly be ignored. if someone wants to come up with an embankment:stabilized=mesh (or whatever) tag for known stabilized slopes, thats fine with me, but I am not pursuing that. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
I am familiar with all of those materials. I agree that they are all different (landscaping paper, farming plastic, weedblocker, tyvek house moisture barrier). I use all of them at my house. This is something different. Something very very thick (2-3mm!) , made with tar or other marital that is fairly stiff yet rollable, and has a opaque, coated, impermeable surface - very similar to the tarpaper I use as a moisture barrier/underlay on roofing - yet is commonly used as a kind of functional landscaping cover in industrial / transportation places (traffic islands, etc) where weeds would be bothersome. And as far as I can tell, it is manufactured for this exact purpose (with accessories and standardized installation techniques) for it, not simply repurposed roofing tarpaper used in a different manner - so it must have a unique name of some kind. Javbw > On Jan 17, 2020, at 5:23 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote: > > These materials are typically not paper, nor plastic film, but rather > some sort of woven or felted material ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 15:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > I agree that earthwork reinforcement may be out of scope here, but the > term "surface" as you read it seems to comprise the first feet of earth, > while I would read it as the surface in contact with air (no thickness, > just a surface), or in other words, if the sheets are the topmost thing > before the air of the atmosphere, surface would be fine, if there is a thin > layer of soil and plants are growing above, it would not be. > As I understood the original post, it described sheets between the ground and the air. Sub-surface erosion sheets will allow sand above them to be blown away and soil above them to be washed away, so won't stay sub-surface for long (so wouldn't be put sub-surface in the first place). Sub-surface weed prevention sheets will allow weed seeds to establish in the soil above them and weed roots will penetrate through them, so they won't be very effective. Others may have, but I don't think I wrote anything stating that I considered the proposed tag to apply to anything that wasn't strictly, visibly, a surface feature. > > Also the in the earth layers of erosion reduction may be observable (e.g. > during construction, after completion punctually, when damaged or when > digging, etc.) > If there are multiple sub-surface layers they're mechanical stabilization, not erosion control (these are two VERY different things). They may potentially be verifiable (from records) and they may potentially be mapable (under some circumstances, perhaps, maybe) but they're NOT surface features unless they're on the surface. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
Am Mo., 20. Jan. 2020 um 15:09 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen : > If they're sub-surface, a mapper won't see them on a survey or aerial > imagery. The > OP appeared to be talking specifically of surface features for preventing > weeds > and/or erosion control, not reinforcement. Visible, therefore mappable. > Surface > type, therefore surface=*. > > I agree that earthwork reinforcement may be out of scope here, but the term "surface" as you read it seems to comprise the first feet of earth, while I would read it as the surface in contact with air (no thickness, just a surface), or in other words, if the sheets are the topmost thing before the air of the atmosphere, surface would be fine, if there is a thin layer of soil and plants are growing above, it would not be. Also the in the earth layers of erosion reduction may be observable (e.g. during construction, after completion punctually, when damaged or when digging, etc.) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 13:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I don't find the surface tag compelling for this, because around here, most > of them are below the surface (although not very deep). I would either see > them as erosing control features or maybe ground reenforcement? (in any > case these would be area properties and not features in OSM) > If they're sub-surface, a mapper won't see them on a survey or aerial imagery. The OP appeared to be talking specifically of surface features for preventing weeds and/or erosion control, not reinforcement. Visible, therefore mappable. Surface type, therefore surface=*. Sheets used to mechanically-stabilize earth are not only not visible, they go deep. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0olpSN6_TCc for a fuller explanation. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
even more related wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geotextile Cheers Martin PS: just another example of the plurality of articles (and connected wikidata objects) for (partially) "the same things" ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
Am Do., 16. Jan. 2020 um 23:11 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny < matkoni...@tutanota.com>: > maybe surface=landscaping_fabric or =landscape_fabric ? > > Wikipedia has stub under the second title > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landscape_fabric > not sure which name is better > here's an article about reinforced earthwork: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanically_stabilized_earth Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
Am Do., 16. Jan. 2020 um 23:11 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny < matkoni...@tutanota.com>: > maybe surface=landscaping_fabric or =landscape_fabric ? > I don't find the surface tag compelling for this, because around here, most of them are below the surface (although not very deep). I would either see them as erosing control features or maybe ground reenforcement? (in any case these would be area properties and not features in OSM) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
16 Jan 2020, 21:21 by kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com: > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:57 AM John Willis via Tagging > wrote: > >> So what would be a good surface=* be for it? Tarpaper sounds too close to >> the roofing material, which could cause confusion. >> > > I use one grade of the stuff for weed control in my vegetable garden, > while another underlies the brickwork on some walkways near my house. > > These materials are typically not paper, nor plastic film, but rather > some sort of woven or felted material (Tyvek, for instance, is a felt > made of polyethylene fibres). All of them are commonly sold around > here as 'landscaping fabric'; perhaps `surface=fabric` might be a > suitable tag? > maybe surface=landscaping_fabric or =landscape_fabric ? Wikipedia has stub under the second title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landscape_fabric not sure which name is better ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:57 AM John Willis via Tagging wrote: > So what would be a good surface=* be for it? Tarpaper sounds too close to the > roofing material, which could cause confusion. I use one grade of the stuff for weed control in my vegetable garden, while another underlies the brickwork on some walkways near my house. These materials are typically not paper, nor plastic film, but rather some sort of woven or felted material (Tyvek, for instance, is a felt made of polyethylene fibres). All of them are commonly sold around here as 'landscaping fabric'; perhaps `surface=fabric` might be a suitable tag? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
16 Jan 2020, 13:55 by tagging@openstreetmap.org: > There is a small amount near my home, I’ll snap a picture of it. > That would help! > It is not a “mappable” amount, but should give you an idea of what it is. > See micromapping, some map really tiny things :) > It is somewhere between weed blocker and the soil stabilizing meshes - but > unlinke the meshes (which often get overgrown) or the farming sheeting (which > is temporary and used in fields), this is permanent (decade or so) and always > the top surface. > > So what would be a good surface=* be for it? Tarpaper sounds too close to the > roofing material, which could cause confusion. > > We should think of some surface=* values for the stabilization meshes > (metal/plastic) as well. > surface=plastic_stabilization_mesh surface=metal_stabilization_mesh ??? See also surface=grass_paver that is kind of similar. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
- yea, a lot of the erosion control searching online I have seen is open mesh or open squared checkerboard. - yea, a lot of weed paper is root-blocking /light blocking sheeting, usually .5mm thick or so - the farming plastic is a weed barrier, and also a wind erosion barrier. (The dust can be amazing in early spring) There are hundreds of KM of 1m wide .1mm plastic with holes in it for various vegetable fields around my home here. It is temporary and reusable. - the “heavy” sheeting i am talking about that I see for erosion control (not necessarily slope stabilization) is thick - like 3-4mm thick roofing material, like felt tarpaper, with a hard green-gray outer coating (not tar). It is held in place with large stakes/staples and those holes are “taped”shut, and all seams “taped” as well. It is used gap filler and small embankment cover around roadway landscaping and between buildings to totally stop all the kudzu and 2m tall sticker-covered weeds from getting a foothold and/or torrential downpour erosion protection for many years. There is a small amount near my home, I’ll snap a picture of it. It is not a “mappable” amount, but should give you an idea of what it is. It is somewhere between weed blocker and the soil stabilizing meshes - but unlinke the meshes (which often get overgrown) or the farming sheeting (which is temporary and used in fields), this is permanent (decade or so) and always the top surface. So what would be a good surface=* be for it? Tarpaper sounds too close to the roofing material, which could cause confusion. We should think of some surface=* values for the stabilization meshes (metal/plastic) as well. Javbw > On Jan 16, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > This sound like a surface=* feature, since it isn't a landuse or > natural vegetation type. > > Plastic sheeting is also used on some types of farmland, for example > strawberry fields, for weed prevention. > > So map the area's function with landuse=railway/industrial/farmland or > natural=scree/sand/etc. or area:highway=, or whatever is relevant, and > then add surface=plastic_sheeting, surface=tar_paper, etc. > > If you don't know the landuse or function, and there is no natural > vegetation, I would use surface=* alone. > >> On 1/16/20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On 16/1/20 11:59 am, John Willis via Tagging wrote: >>> here in Japan and other places where unwanted vegetation grows very >>> quickly and/or has heavy rain, heavy tar paper / plastic or metal mesh / >>> or plastic “weedblocking” sheeting is commonly used on embankments, >>> traffic islands, and other places where people want to stop weeds from >>> growing and to prevent erosion from heavy rain. Stakes or landscaping >>> staples hold it in place, and sometimes seams are sealed with additional >>> material (if the barrier is for weedblocking). It is commonly seen in >>> industrial settings (areas around factories), and in public areas around >>> roads and other transportation infrastructure where people don’t walk. >>> this is a permanent landcover, not temporary covering for construction, >>> etc. >>> >>> While I admit it is rare to tag a lot of this, when mapping public areas >>> around some roads, I have found more and more of it. >>> >>> looking in surface= and landcover= , I cant find anything that matches. >>> “tar paper” as a roofing material is on the wiki, but noting else about >>> “landscaping” or “weedblocking” is found. >>> >>> What do people suggest is a good name to add to “surface” or “landcover” >>> for such a surface? >>> >>> Looking around the internet, there is a large variety of “erosion control” >>> sheeting and materials (this tar paper, plastic & metal mesh, and other >>> landcovers meant to control erosion on slopes), so perhaps a tag for all >>> of them is appropriate. >>> >>> Perhaps landcover=erosion_control is a good tag for all of these types of >>> sheeting applied to the ground. if a further refinement is needed (and >>> someone knows the proper names for these things, then a subtag can be >>> added later (erosion_control=foo_bar). >> >> >> Different things ; >> >> erosion control, >> >> weed block. >> >> The weed block plastic here is called 'weed mat', it is designed so as not >> to allow sunlight through, well not enough for a plant to grow. >> >> On a steep slope it will do nothing for erosion control as it sits above the >> soil. I have a few square meters of it at home. >> >> Erosion control may well allow enough sunlight through to enable plants to >> grow .. including weeds. >> >> >> >> > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
This sound like a surface=* feature, since it isn't a landuse or natural vegetation type. Plastic sheeting is also used on some types of farmland, for example strawberry fields, for weed prevention. So map the area's function with landuse=railway/industrial/farmland or natural=scree/sand/etc. or area:highway=, or whatever is relevant, and then add surface=plastic_sheeting, surface=tar_paper, etc. If you don't know the landuse or function, and there is no natural vegetation, I would use surface=* alone. On 1/16/20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 16/1/20 11:59 am, John Willis via Tagging wrote: >> here in Japan and other places where unwanted vegetation grows very >> quickly and/or has heavy rain, heavy tar paper / plastic or metal mesh / >> or plastic “weedblocking” sheeting is commonly used on embankments, >> traffic islands, and other places where people want to stop weeds from >> growing and to prevent erosion from heavy rain. Stakes or landscaping >> staples hold it in place, and sometimes seams are sealed with additional >> material (if the barrier is for weedblocking). It is commonly seen in >> industrial settings (areas around factories), and in public areas around >> roads and other transportation infrastructure where people don’t walk. >> this is a permanent landcover, not temporary covering for construction, >> etc. >> >> While I admit it is rare to tag a lot of this, when mapping public areas >> around some roads, I have found more and more of it. >> >> looking in surface= and landcover= , I cant find anything that matches. >> “tar paper” as a roofing material is on the wiki, but noting else about >> “landscaping” or “weedblocking” is found. >> >> What do people suggest is a good name to add to “surface” or “landcover” >> for such a surface? >> >> Looking around the internet, there is a large variety of “erosion control” >> sheeting and materials (this tar paper, plastic & metal mesh, and other >> landcovers meant to control erosion on slopes), so perhaps a tag for all >> of them is appropriate. >> >> Perhaps landcover=erosion_control is a good tag for all of these types of >> sheeting applied to the ground. if a further refinement is needed (and >> someone knows the proper names for these things, then a subtag can be >> added later (erosion_control=foo_bar). > > > Different things ; > > erosion control, > > weed block. > > The weed block plastic here is called 'weed mat', it is designed so as not > to allow sunlight through, well not enough for a plant to grow. > > On a steep slope it will do nothing for erosion control as it sits above the > soil. I have a few square meters of it at home. > > Erosion control may well allow enough sunlight through to enable plants to > grow .. including weeds. > > > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
On 16/1/20 11:59 am, John Willis via Tagging wrote: here in Japan and other places where unwanted vegetation grows very quickly and/or has heavy rain, heavy tar paper / plastic or metal mesh / or plastic “weedblocking” sheeting is commonly used on embankments, traffic islands, and other places where people want to stop weeds from growing and to prevent erosion from heavy rain. Stakes or landscaping staples hold it in place, and sometimes seams are sealed with additional material (if the barrier is for weedblocking). It is commonly seen in industrial settings (areas around factories), and in public areas around roads and other transportation infrastructure where people don’t walk. this is a permanent landcover, not temporary covering for construction, etc. While I admit it is rare to tag a lot of this, when mapping public areas around some roads, I have found more and more of it. looking in surface= and landcover= , I cant find anything that matches. “tar paper” as a roofing material is on the wiki, but noting else about “landscaping” or “weedblocking” is found. What do people suggest is a good name to add to “surface” or “landcover” for such a surface? Looking around the internet, there is a large variety of “erosion control” sheeting and materials (this tar paper, plastic & metal mesh, and other landcovers meant to control erosion on slopes), so perhaps a tag for all of them is appropriate. Perhaps landcover=erosion_control is a good tag for all of these types of sheeting applied to the ground. if a further refinement is needed (and someone knows the proper names for these things, then a subtag can be added later (erosion_control=foo_bar). Different things ; erosion control, weed block. The weed block plastic here is called 'weed mat', it is designed so as not to allow sunlight through, well not enough for a plant to grow. On a steep slope it will do nothing for erosion control as it sits above the soil. I have a few square meters of it at home. Erosion control may well allow enough sunlight through to enable plants to grow .. including weeds. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] How to tag Landscaping tarpaper / weedblocking paper
here in Japan and other places where unwanted vegetation grows very quickly and/or has heavy rain, heavy tar paper / plastic or metal mesh / or plastic “weedblocking” sheeting is commonly used on embankments, traffic islands, and other places where people want to stop weeds from growing and to prevent erosion from heavy rain. Stakes or landscaping staples hold it in place, and sometimes seams are sealed with additional material (if the barrier is for weedblocking). It is commonly seen in industrial settings (areas around factories), and in public areas around roads and other transportation infrastructure where people don’t walk. this is a permanent landcover, not temporary covering for construction, etc. While I admit it is rare to tag a lot of this, when mapping public areas around some roads, I have found more and more of it. looking in surface= and landcover= , I cant find anything that matches. “tar paper” as a roofing material is on the wiki, but noting else about “landscaping” or “weedblocking” is found. What do people suggest is a good name to add to “surface” or “landcover” for such a surface? Looking around the internet, there is a large variety of “erosion control” sheeting and materials (this tar paper, plastic & metal mesh, and other landcovers meant to control erosion on slopes), so perhaps a tag for all of them is appropriate. Perhaps landcover=erosion_control is a good tag for all of these types of sheeting applied to the ground. if a further refinement is needed (and someone knows the proper names for these things, then a subtag can be added later (erosion_control=foo_bar). Thoughts? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] How to tag landscaping
Bring me a shrubbery! While doing some small-scale mapping, I came across an area of landscaping roughly outlined in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Landscaping.png Landscaping typically has small trees, shrubs, flowers, and other decorative plants. Being artificial, the natural=scrub and natural=heath tags are not suitable. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag landscaping
2010/11/1 Paul Norman penor...@mac.com: Bring me a shrubbery! While doing some small-scale mapping, I came across an area of landscaping roughly outlined in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Landscaping.png Landscaping typically has small trees, shrubs, flowers, and other decorative plants. Being artificial, the natural=scrub and natural=heath tags are not suitable. maybe you could invent a new subclass of garden? The scale of the intervention in your foto suggests that this is not a landscape (although landscaping might be the word to describe the process). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
