Re: [Tagging] Ponds are not observable on the ground

[Tom Pfeifer]

This discussion originally started in this changeset, which quite obviously was _not_ driven by a 
ground survey:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76766631

Some even larger in Sweden:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76998968
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77003019
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76996948

The latter give source="Lantmäteriet Topographic Map" which appears to be CC0 
according to the wiki,
ok, however probably not the best source for large-scale mechanical edits.

Haven't found the edits on the Balkan yet that you mentioned in the CS 
discussion.

Regarding the question lake vs. pond, please remember the world is not black 
and white.

As with many features in OSM that could be A or B, there are always clear cases where everybody 
agrees that one object is A and the other clearly B, but there are cases where it depends on the 
judgment of the mapper.


The water in my neighbour's garden is a pond. The thing in the middle of a village is a pond. Quite 
observable.
The excavation from the most recent ice age, where I can swim, is a lake. Now go and find things in 
between.


On 19.03.2020 14:15, pangoSE wrote:
> IMO pond should not be mapped because it is not observable on the ground. How do you determine if 
it is

> "artificially created"/"man made"?

On 19.03.2020 14:42, Paul Allen wrote:


Oh, you're talking about water=pond after all.  Nothing about
water=pond says man_made or natural, it just says that there is
a pond of water.


tom

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Re: [Tagging] Ponds are not observable on the ground

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 13:17, pangoSE  wrote:

> IMO pond should not be mapped because it is not observable on the ground.
> How do you determine if it is
> "artificially created"/"man made"?
>

You're asking whether it should be man_made=pond or natural=pond?  It's
neither.

See:
>
> A pond : a body of standing water,
> man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake.
>
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:water%3Dpond

Oh, you're talking about water=pond after all.  Nothing about
water=pond says man_made or natural, it just says that there is
a pond of water.

As it stands right now in the wiki I suggest we either deprecate the tag
> completely or change the definition to something that is observable on the
> ground.
>

Finally, after all the misleading stuff you wrote, you get to the point.
You
believe that the definition of a pond says that it is man-made and that
'we're (usually) unable to tell if a pond is natural or man-made.  But the
definition does NOT say ponds are man-made, it says "man-made in
most CASES" which means pond can be man-made or natural.

It might be sensible to make the definition a little more clear, but you've
mainly been arguing against your own misinterpretation of what it
currently says.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Ponds are not observable on the ground

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/03/2020 13:15, pangoSE wrote:


Hi

IMO pond should not be mapped because it is not observable on the 
ground. How do you determine if it is

"artificially created"/"man made"?


Most ponds that I add are as a result of survey, so "should not be 
mapped because it is not observable on the ground" doesn't make a lot of 
sense to me.  To be honest, I usually just leave them as natural=water, 
but that's just my laziness.



As it stands right now in the wiki I suggest we either deprecate the 
tag completely or change the definition to something that is 
observable on the ground.


If you're sat there looking at a pond, it's usually pretty obvious 
whether it's man-made or not.  Has it got a man-made dam at one side and 
is it fed by obviously man-made ditches?  Then it's probably man-made.  
Is it just in a natural dip in the ground with none of those features?  
Then it probably isn't.


Even if you're looking at imagery some of those features will still be 
visible - mill ponds show up pretty clearly, as do the waterways created 
to feed them.


Best Regards,

Andy


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[Tagging] Ponds are not observable on the ground

[pangoSE]

Hi

IMO pond should not be mapped because it is not observable on the 
ground. How do you determine if it is

"artificially created"/"man made"?
See:

A pond : a body of standing water, 
man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:water%3Dpond

Lake: a body of relatively still fresh or salt water, localized in a 
basin that is surrounded by land. Artificially created lakes are tagged 
aswater =pond 
orwater 
=reservoir 
. 
Intermittent lakes (which disappear seasonally) should be tagged 
withintermittent 
=yes; salt lakes — 
withsalt 
=yes.https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:water%3Dlake 



As it stands right now in the wiki I suggest we either deprecate the tag 
completely or change the definition to something that is observable on 
the ground.


WDYT?

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