Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Am 03.11.2013 um 20:49 schrieb Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: Alright, so mapping Italian tobacco shops as shop=newsagent would not make sense. On the other hand, in the Netherlands there are shops that offer everything you might find in a German shop=tobacco (newspapers, magazines, post stamps, lottery bills), except for the tobacco products. So mapping these shops as shop=newsagent wouldn't make sense either. IMHO for these Dutch shops newsagent would make sense, especially if they don't sell tobacco. What do you want to tag, places to buy tobacco, newspapers, bus tickets, lottery tickets? Or all of this combined? Which are the essential parts, and which are optional? What kind of tobacco? Are you interested in shops specialized in cigars? or pipes? If you smoke one of these it makes a big difference, and finding a shop specialized in the other one won't help you... So indeed it seems we will need two tags for very similar shops. Also, we would need to find a way how to tag shops that sell both tobacco and newspapers. IMHO newspapers and tobacco have nothing in common besides that in a few European countries you can buy both in the same shop, but in Germany you can also buy tobacco in a supermarket, at a petrol station and in many other places (e.g. small convenience stores). Also, I'm still not sure how shop=kiosk fits in this picture. Just about the same as shop=sales_booth would ;-) Kiosk is a building typology and not a shop typology in the first place, my guess is it's German-centric, as in German it's used for this kind of newsagent typically also selling tobacco, sweets and lottery tickets, operating out of a kiosk. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Am 03.11.2013 um 16:40 schrieb fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Did you mean that a kisok does not offer any indoor place for customers but is only a counter with (covered) shelfs outdoor ? No, I meant that a kiosk is a small freestanding building, often polygonal (hexagon, octagon, etc.), but not a type of shop. With shop we usually classify what kind of stuff it sold / service offered, but kiosk does not fit into this structure, as it's a building type. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Am 03.11.2013 um 17:25 schrieb sabas88 saba...@gmail.com: for tickets I'd like something like office=tickets (so we'll catch also the place vending tickets outside a museum). I'd prefer shop= ticket_office as the key Office is used for different objects in osm Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013, at 08:00 AM, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Dear all, In many countries, there is a type of shop that sells most of the following: - Newspapers - Magazines - Books (but not as wide selection as a book shop) - Stationary [Stationery*] - Post cards - Bus tickets - Concert tickets - Lottery tickets - Post stamps - Tobacco - Mobile phone credit - Drinks and candy In the US we'd probably call this either a newsstand or convenience store (c-store for short). Most c-stores don't sell concert tickets or books, but do often sell other such items like transit card reloads or car maintenance items. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Dear all, In many countries, there is a type of shop that sells most of the following: - Newspapers - Magazines - Books (but not as wide selection as a book shop) - Stationary - Post cards - Bus tickets - Concert tickets - Lottery tickets - Post stamps - Tobacco - Mobile phone credit - Drinks and candy The name of this type of shop varies across countries. In the Netherlands and Italy, they are most often refered to as tobacco shop (although tobacco is only a small fraction of what is being sold). In Switzerland and Luxembourg, they are refered to as kiosk (although they are not necessarily small buildings on the sidewalk). In Germany, they seem to be referred to as lottery shops (although they offer much more than just lottery tickets). However, the concept seems to be quite similar in most of these countries. Some examples (not necessarily under an open license): Italian tabacchi: http://www.investmilano.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tabacchi222.jpg Dutch Primera cigarette shop: http://wijkaanzee.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Primera-wijkaanzee.jpg Swiss K-Kiosk: http://www.gaeupark.ch/upload/prj/images/kiosk1.jpg English WHSmith: http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/at-the-airport/shop-restaurant-images/WHSmith.ashx German Lotto lottery shop: http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? In any case, we have two options. We can either tag these shops as they are refered to in the country itself (for example shop=tobacco in the Netherlands and Italy, shop=lottery in Germany, shop=kiosk in Switzerland and Luxembourg), or try to come up with a tag that allows tagging the same type of shop in the same way across the globe. I would prefer the second option. Would shop=newsagent be understood for these kind of shops in most coutries? I'm not sure whether Italian tabacchi also sell news papers, for example. Thanks in advance for any input. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
In the UK the are called newsagents, and fit your description pretty well. W H Smith is slightly different, whilst it has news stands and small shops in railway stations and in airports, it also has larger high street shops that are principally book shops, although they will sell newspapers and magazines. Phil (trigpoint) On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 13:00 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Dear all, In many countries, there is a type of shop that sells most of the following: - Newspapers - Magazines - Books (but not as wide selection as a book shop) - Stationary - Post cards - Bus tickets - Concert tickets - Lottery tickets - Post stamps - Tobacco - Mobile phone credit - Drinks and candy The name of this type of shop varies across countries. In the Netherlands and Italy, they are most often refered to as tobacco shop (although tobacco is only a small fraction of what is being sold). In Switzerland and Luxembourg, they are refered to as kiosk (although they are not necessarily small buildings on the sidewalk). In Germany, they seem to be referred to as lottery shops (although they offer much more than just lottery tickets). However, the concept seems to be quite similar in most of these countries. Some examples (not necessarily under an open license): Italian tabacchi: http://www.investmilano.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tabacchi222.jpg Dutch Primera cigarette shop: http://wijkaanzee.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Primera-wijkaanzee.jpg Swiss K-Kiosk: http://www.gaeupark.ch/upload/prj/images/kiosk1.jpg English WHSmith: http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/at-the-airport/shop-restaurant-images/WHSmith.ashx German Lotto lottery shop: http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? In any case, we have two options. We can either tag these shops as they are refered to in the country itself (for example shop=tobacco in the Netherlands and Italy, shop=lottery in Germany, shop=kiosk in Switzerland and Luxembourg), or try to come up with a tag that allows tagging the same type of shop in the same way across the globe. I would prefer the second option. Would shop=newsagent be understood for these kind of shops in most coutries? I'm not sure whether Italian tabacchi also sell news papers, for example. Thanks in advance for any input. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Am 03.11.2013 14:29, schrieb Philip Barnes: In the UK the are called newsagents, and fit your description pretty well. W H Smith is slightly different, whilst it has news stands and small shops in railway stations and in airports, it also has larger high street shops that are principally book shops, although they will sell newspapers and magazines. Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks, newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things. That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups them but should be tagged with an own tag. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
On 3 November 2013 14:30, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks, newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things. That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups them but should be tagged with an own tag. What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg They call themselves 'Lottoshop'. Would you call such a shop lottoshop in everyday usage, or would you call it a newsagent or kiosk? What is the difference between kiosks and newsagents in Germany? Could you give a chain name for each of them, perhaps? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
I have seen these in Germany, but the only lottery only places I have come accross in the UK are kiosks in shopping centres. I would tag that as shop=lottery. Lottery is the correct english word, I always read lotto as a brand name for particular lotteries. Phil (trigpoint) On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 14:36 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 3 November 2013 14:30, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks, newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things. That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups them but should be tagged with an own tag. What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg They call themselves 'Lottoshop'. Would you call such a shop lottoshop in everyday usage, or would you call it a newsagent or kiosk? What is the difference between kiosks and newsagents in Germany? Could you give a chain name for each of them, perhaps? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure, but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g. your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches, etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks. Lotto is a different issue, in Germany the common couple is a newspaper agent offering wasting your money on lottery. Given that already inside a certain country there are huge differences between these kind of shops. I'd think it is almost impossible to do it on an international level. E.g. some shop=tobacco are specialized in tobacco and offer a huge selection of cigars, pipes and pipe tobacco, cigarette rolling tobacco etc., while others not even offer rolling tobacco but only a small selection of cigarettes and maybe one or two common cigar types. I won't deduct from the shop type what exactly is the offering, either we had to make specific subtypes (e.g. tobacco bar, tobacco + newspapers, even tobacco and pastry/bread) or express this with additional attributes in the form of sell:tobacco=yes, sell:icecream=yes, lotto=yes (or sells for grammatical reasons, but the sell:* form seems more common currently). In conclusion to your original question I'd say that this is not one kind of shop, but there are different kind of shops in different countries, offering overlapping goods and services. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg IMHO this is a kind of newsstand or travel supplies shop, offering usually candies, drinks, newspapers, magazines, tobacco and certain kinds of books, and also lotto, but lotto isn't their main purpose (maybe I'm too egocentric here, because I hardly ever play lotto). In OSM I'd tag this either newsagent or tobacco (adding a sell:tobacco in the case of newsagent). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com Looking at the sweets below the desk and maybe some hidden beverages I would call it a kiosk. yes, the typology of offered goods is that of a kind of kiosk in Germany, but the structure clearly isn't a kiosk (maybe that's not a problem, simply don't use building=kiosk and you're done? On the other hand, isn't kiosk refering to a building type and not to a shop?). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Am 03.11.2013 16:34, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/11/3 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com Looking at the sweets below the desk and maybe some hidden beverages I would call it a kiosk. yes, the typology of offered goods is that of a kind of kiosk in Germany, but the structure clearly isn't a kiosk (maybe that's not a problem, simply don't use building=kiosk and you're done? On the other hand, isn't kiosk refering to a building type and not to a shop?). Thought we tag building=* and building:use=* but never heard that shop=kiosk is connected to building. Though you often find them in small separate buildings Did you mean that a kisok does not offer any indoor place for customers but is only a counter with (covered) shelfs outdoor ? fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure, but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g. your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches, etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks. Lotto is a different issue, in Germany the common couple is a newspaper agent offering wasting your money on lottery. Given that already inside a certain country there are huge differences between these kind of shops. I'd think it is almost impossible to do it on an international level. E.g. some shop=tobacco are specialized in tobacco and offer a huge selection of cigars, pipes and pipe tobacco, cigarette rolling tobacco etc., while others not even offer rolling tobacco but only a small selection of cigarettes and maybe one or two common cigar types. I won't deduct from the shop type what exactly is the offering, either we had to make specific subtypes (e.g. tobacco bar, tobacco + newspapers, even tobacco and pastry/bread) or express this with additional attributes in the form of sell:tobacco=yes, sell:icecream=yes, lotto=yes (or sells for grammatical reasons, but the sell:* form seems more common currently). In conclusion to your original question I'd say that this is not one kind of shop, but there are different kind of shops in different countries, offering overlapping goods and services. I'm adding some things here.. We could use vending=* as for vending machines. I'm mapping as kiosk when there's more items from the list, shop=tobacco when it's a proper tabacchino or tabaccaio (outside has a black and white sign with the reference code from the Italian Monopoli), shop=newsagent when sells exclusively newspapers and magazines or it's a standalone kiosk with mostly newspapers for tickets I'd like something like office=tickets (so we'll catch also the place vending tickets outside a museum). In Italy through lotto (only the most recent machines) you could pay bills, taxes and other services. cheers, Martin Bye, Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
On 3 November 2013 15:31, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg IMHO this is a kind of newsstand or travel supplies shop, offering usually candies, drinks, newspapers, magazines, tobacco and certain kinds of books, and also lotto, but lotto isn't their main purpose (maybe I'm too egocentric here, because I hardly ever play lotto). In other words, we cannot simply follow how the shop calls itself, because this shop does call itself a 'lotto shop'. I agree that the lotto is not the main purpose of this shop. In OSM I'd tag this either newsagent or tobacco (adding a sell:tobacco in the case of newsagent). So the situation seems to be similar to the Netherlands, where either of these tags would also make sense. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
On 3 November 2013 15:26, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure, but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g. your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches, etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks. Alright, so mapping Italian tobacco shops as shop=newsagent would not make sense. On the other hand, in the Netherlands there are shops that offer everything you might find in a German shop=tobacco (newspapers, magazines, post stamps, lottery bills), except for the tobacco products. So mapping these shops as shop=newsagent wouldn't make sense either. So indeed it seems we will need two tags for very similar shops. Also, we would need to find a way how to tag shops that sell both tobacco and newspapers. Also, I'm still not sure how shop=kiosk fits in this picture. -- Matthijs -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
