Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Apr 2018, at 07:34, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Are they under the military or under the civilian government?
> 
> How does OSM separate out other government/military departments?



some are military, some are governmental, and some seem to be sth on their own 
;-)

office is ok for offices, but I’d tag this to the office, not the whole 
facility. By using a different key we can distinguish and combine as needed.
For military services you can add military=* as well.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Warin]

Are they under the military or under the civilian government?

How does OSM separate out other government/military departments? Use the 
same method for these.

Why does an 'Intelligence facility' require different tagging?

On 11/04/18 13:21, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On 11 April 2018 at 09:05, Paul Allen > wrote:


On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:


Have a look here for one of the most prominent examples:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/186025617

names in 7 languages, but landuse=government is the only tag
that describes the feature, really?


The people working there are office workers.
office=intelligence_agency?


Think the same thing would apply to all of them - after all, how many 
actual intelligence agents does "MI6" really have? :-)


But I also agree with what Martin said - had a look at MI6 earlier 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.48720/-0.12381, & it's tagged 
as both landuse=military & also "Govt Office", with the name Secret 
Intelligence Service! Surely we could do better than that? :-)


Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 April 2018 at 09:05, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Have a look here for one of the most prominent examples:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/186025617
>> names in 7 languages, but landuse=government is the only tag that
>> describes the feature, really?
>>
>
> The people working there are office workers.  office=intelligence_agency?
>

Think the same thing would apply to all of them - after all, how many
actual intelligence agents does "MI6" really have? :-)

But I also agree with what Martin said - had a look at MI6 earlier
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.48720/-0.12381, & it's tagged as
both landuse=military & also "Govt Office", with the name Secret
Intelligence Service! Surely we could do better than that? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:44 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> I suppose you could mark the publicly-known buildings, such as the MI6
> Ziggurat in London, or the CIA at Langley etc, but pretty hard to use
> anywhere else?
>

The ones I can think of in the UK with locations in the public domain are
GCHQ, MI5, MI6 and part of RAF Fylingdales.

I'm not convinced there's any point marking embassies as such.  They all
have at least one intelligence officer (even
if he/she wears other hats too) that tagging the building as an embassy is
sufficient.  Tagging an embassy as also
being an intelligence facility seems redundant.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I admit there is a less serious component in this proposal, in that every
embassy, potentially, eventually, has to do with intelligence, and
obviously, secret installations are not known, unless you know about them,
usually for professional reasons, in which case you would put yourself
under serious risk, unless you are disclosing information about the
"others" (and as long as you don't know for sure that they know that you
know, you will not tell anybody anyway).

But there is also a completely serious part: many installations are known.
You can read about them in the newspaper. There are already many of these
sites mapped in OSM, although they do not use specific or uniform tagging.
I am primarily aiming at mapping these known sites.

Have a look here for one of the most prominent examples:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/186025617
names in 7 languages, but landuse=government is the only tag that describes
the feature, really?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 April 2018 at 08:08, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> The ordinary ones are hard enough to verify.
>
>
I suppose you could mark the publicly-known buildings, such as the MI6
Ziggurat in London, or the CIA at Langley etc, but pretty hard to use
anywhere else?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 10:54 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> How could they be verified?
>
> The ordinary ones are hard enough to verify.  The ones tagged
intelligence_facility=secret are even harder.

I'm not convinced this is a sensible idea.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Warin]

On 11/04/18 00:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I have worked on my proposal for tagging intelligence facilities and 
am asking for your comments.


They 'don't exist'.  No 'embassy' will admit to them.

Grigory Logvinov  Russian Diplomat in Australia responding to questions 
about expulsions of 'Russian spies' said recently;


"They are absolutely legal, career diplomats... without any grounds 
called spies," Mr Logvinov told reporters in a sprawling press 
conference at the Russian embassy.


When asked how many Russian spies were left in Australia, Mr Logvinov 
replied: "Zero minus zero is still zero."


https://www.sbs.com.au/news/no-russian-spies-in-australia-says-ambassador-grigory-logvinov


How could they be verified?




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[Tagging] RFC: intelligence facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I have worked on my proposal for tagging intelligence facilities and am
asking for your comments.

The key was changed from amenity to man_made because this allows for adding
the tag to amenity=embassy sites. On the other hand, this move makes it
incompatible with other man_made objects like antennas etc. (it would be a
problem only in case it is a single isolated object without any area
around), so I have added also a property: intelligence_facility=yes.

Just in case you are wondering, you don't have to wait for voting, you can
use the tags right now.

Cheers,
Martin
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