Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
I made some changes to the page Key:wikipedia on the wiki. Please review: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Awikipediadiff=1060207oldid=1041603 2014-07-01 19:58 GMT-03:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: I've been experimenting with Wikidata a bit. I'm not a Wikipedian, rather a convinced Openstreetmapper. One of the problems I had with Wiktionary and Wikipedia is how data is duplicated over and over again. Wikidata finally started solving that. We should take advantage from that. Here are some examples of things I consider useful: Everything named after Guido Gezelle (mostly streets) http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=%28relation[%22name%3Aetymology%3Awikidata%22%3D%22Q336977%22]%3B%0A%3E%3E%3B%0A%3E%3B%0Away[%22name%3Aetymology%3Awikidata%22%3D%22Q336977%22]%3B%0A%3E%3B%0Anode[%22name%3Aetymology%3Awikidata%22%3D%22Q336977%22]%3B%29%3B%0Aout%20meta%3BC=51.98185;4.83689;7R Replace it with Q232785 and you get everything related to Father Damien. Unfortunately I didn't find where they buried his hands on Molokai. Polyglot 2014-07-02 0:22 GMT+02:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 01.07.2014 22:25, yvecai wrote: This map could also be done with a third project linking OSM and Wikidata by automatically linking both datasets instead of manual tag entry of technical references. Call Overpass for OSM data (admin boundaries), then search wikimedia commons for flags with the corresponding name. But why would you prefer such a vague and error-prone style of linking when unambiguous linking via ID is possible? Even in very simple cases this is going to break down. Searching for flag Austria on Wikimedia Commons, for example, gives you the following top three hits: 1. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Animated-Flag-Austria.gif 2. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_Austria_template.gif 3. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Smile-flag_Austria.gif The one we actually want is only ranked fourth: 4. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Austria.svg Wikidata, on the other hand, gets us straight to the one we want. How isn't this the better solution? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
2014-07-09 16:37 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I made some changes to the page Key:wikipedia on the wiki. Please review: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Awikipediadiff=1060207oldid=1041603 your edit looks fine to me, besides that you removed the url reference. This is still a valid tagging method, isn't it? (Shouldn't be used for wikipedia, but is fine for the rest, and should IMHO be kept there as a reference). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
I removed the link to the key url=* because it's own wiki page advises it shouldn't be used, so I figured there was no need to link it here. As far as I understood, although it might make sense to tag an URL in some cases, the meaning of this key is too generic, making it hard to be used by tools. Therefore it's better to use another key that better indicates the meaning or relation of the URL, such as website=*, wikipedia=* and so on (not sure if there are others). 2014-07-09 11:43 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-07-09 16:37 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I made some changes to the page Key:wikipedia on the wiki. Please review: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Awikipediadiff=1060207oldid=1041603 your edit looks fine to me, besides that you removed the url reference. This is still a valid tagging method, isn't it? (Shouldn't be used for wikipedia, but is fine for the rest, and should IMHO be kept there as a reference). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
2014-07-09 16:57 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I removed the link to the key url=* because it's own wiki page advises it shouldn't be used, so I figured there was no need to link it here. Thanks for pointing at this, I have amended this sentence to make more sense, please check: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aurldiff=1060215oldid=997125 As far as I understood, although it might make sense to tag an URL in some cases, the meaning of this key is too generic, making it hard to be used by tools. Therefore it's better to use another key that better indicates the meaning or relation of the URL, such as website=*, wikipedia=* and so on (not sure if there are others). +1, where one of these more specific tags can be applied, it is better to use them, for the rest url will still remain a valid tag. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 30 June 2014 14:30, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: the wikipedia key is still human readable where the wikidata is just an encrypted interdatabase foreign key. A Wikidata ID is part of a URL and can be rendered as such; for example, Q173882 equates to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q173882 I would consider elements exclusively tagged with wikidata as a pollution Please tone down the hyperbole like any other unusable 'ref's to external resources. It's not unusable; see URL, above. And one of the mentionned example is providing the building operator only through the wikipedia:operator where most of the data consumers are simply looking for the operator tag. I discover a semantic shift where traditional OSM tags are slowly replaced by wikipedia contributors eyes and habits. OSM is best used for on the ground data. There's no point in trying to use it to replicate all the data held in other databases. An example I've given previsouly is that the Wikidata entry for Q173882 (which is St Paul's Cathedral in London) links to the MusicBrainz entry for the cathedral, and that tells us which musical works have been premiered there. We wouldn't want to use OSM to store lists of works premiered in the buildings we map. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: A Wikidata ID is part of a URL and can be rendered as such; for example, Q173882 equates to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q173882 It was said at the beginning that wikidata or wikipedia tags will never replace OSM tags but now I see counter examples or duplicates of what is already there (like on this scary proposal for the operator, architect, brand, artist, subject, name etymology [1]) . This is what I call seeing the OSM project through wikipedia eyes. Since I'm not a wikipedian, I don't care about such tags if it remains below the noise level but I hope we will be able to avoid their proliferation in OSM (e.g. this growing list of wikidata: prefixed tags). I guess the next step could be to rely on wikipedia for the translations but OSM has to stay independant, even if it makes wikipedians unhappy. It's not unusable; see URL, above. Consider the contributors that never heart the word 'wikidata' and how they can understand the tag wikidata=Q173882. It's not a tag I could describe as self-explanatory. An example I've given previsouly is that the Wikidata entry for Q173882 (which is St Paul's Cathedral in London) links to the MusicBrainz entry for the cathedral, and that tells us which musical works have been premiered there. We wouldn't want to use OSM to store lists of works premiered in the buildings we map. OSM is open for all new tags. Once we admit wikidata references, what would prevent someone to add the MusicBrainz or freebase.com reference directly in OSM ? Why should we accept one and not the others. Where is the breaking point ? Pieren [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
2014-07-01 17:40 GMT+02:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Why should we accept one and not the others. Where is the breaking point ? I think the distinction to be made is whether the linked database is public and available under an open license. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 01.07.2014 17:40, Pieren wrote: It was said at the beginning that wikidata or wikipedia tags will never replace OSM tags but now I see counter examples or duplicates of what is already there (like on this scary proposal for the operator, architect, brand, artist, subject, name etymology [1]) . These are not designed to replace the operator/subject/... tags, though, but are meant to be used in situations where no wikidata/wikipedia link for the object itself exists. For example: When there is no wikipedia page about the grave of some famous person, but there is one about the person themselves, it should still be possible to link it in a semantically correct way. The building being discussed in this thread is not really a shining example. It's mostly just a hack because someone wanted to have two links on the same object. I guess the next step could be to rely on wikipedia for the translations but OSM has to stay independant, even if it makes wikipedians unhappy. You don't have to be a Wikipedian to see the advantages of cooperating with other free projects. Why do everything ourselves when there is a friendly project that is much better suited for certain task? I don't think that's the case with translations, but data about persons, about historical events, details about companies – that kind of data works much better in Wikidata imo. OSM is open for all new tags. Once we admit wikidata references, what would prevent someone to add the MusicBrainz or freebase.com reference directly in OSM ? Why should we accept one and not the others. Where is the breaking point ? Technically, we entered the slippery slope when we included wikipedia links. But consider this: If you don't want tons of links to other databases, then you should be happy about Wikidata. After all, they are managing a collection of links to these databases already, so we don't have to do it again. It could be the one external reference to rule them all. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 1 July 2014 16:40, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: A Wikidata ID is part of a URL and can be rendered as such; for example, Q173882 equates to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q173882 It was said at the beginning that wikidata or wikipedia tags will never replace OSM tags Who said that? Where? Who has now said that they *will* replace OSM tags? but now I see counter examples or duplicates of what is already there (like on this scary proposal for the operator, architect, brand, artist, subject, name etymology [1]) . Scary? Again, please tone down the rhetoric. This is what I call seeing the OSM project through wikipedia eyes. Since I'm not a wikipedian, I don't care about such tags if it remains below the noise level but I hope we will be able to avoid their proliferation in OSM (e.g. this growing list of wikidata: prefixed tags). I guess the next step could be to rely on wikipedia for the translations Yes, it would make good sense to use Wikidata for translations, in a number of circumstances. I have no idea what, say, the Croatian for raiwlay station is, but I bet Wikidata does. but OSM has to stay independant, even if it makes wikipedians unhappy. OSM already does not exist in a vacuum; I see no problem with interdependence, just as Wikipedia is increasingly becoming dependent on OSM of its maps. It's not unusable; see URL, above. Consider the contributors that never heart the word 'wikidata' and how they can understand the tag wikidata=Q173882. It's not a tag I could describe as self-explanatory. It does not need to be self-explanatory; we have a wiki to do the explaining; and editing tools can also do that. We equally have many other tags, which a given contributor may never have heard of. An example I've given previsouly is that the Wikidata entry for Q173882 (which is St Paul's Cathedral in London) links to the MusicBrainz entry for the cathedral, and that tells us which musical works have been premiered there. We wouldn't want to use OSM to store lists of works premiered in the buildings we map. OSM is open for all new tags. Once we admit wikidata references, what would prevent someone to add the MusicBrainz or freebase.com reference directly in OSM ? Nothing would /prevent/ them; there is much that is not prevented, but which is still not wise, or useful. Why should we accept one and not the others. Where is the breaking point ? What others? We should accept - or not - each tag depending on its usefulness to the project. In this case, it is more useful to let Wikidata do the heavy lifting, and for us to link to the place where they have done so. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 01.07.2014 18:08, Tobias Knerr wrote: OSM is open for all new tags. Once we admit wikidata references, what would prevent someone to add the MusicBrainz or freebase.com reference directly in OSM ? Why should we accept one and not the others. Where is the breaking point ? Technically, we entered the slippery slope when we included wikipedia links. But consider this: If you don't want tons of links to other databases, then you should be happy about Wikidata. After all, they are managing a collection of links to these databases already, so we don't have to do it again. It could be the one external reference to rule them all. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 01.07.2014 18:08, Tobias Knerr wrote: OSM is open for all new tags. Once we admit wikidata references, what would prevent someone to add the MusicBrainz or freebase.com reference directly in OSM ? Why should we accept one and not the others. Where is the breaking point ? Technically, we entered the slippery slope when we included wikipedia links. But consider this: If you don't want tons of links to other databases, then you should be happy about Wikidata. After all, they are managing a collection of links to these databases already, so we don't have to do it again. It could be the one external reference to rule them all. I would find more logical to make links between databases with queries rather by adding external references in one or the other. The later looks like the poor man job (oversimplifying, I don't want to put down the great job done at Wikidata). I have the feeling that wikidata references add visibilty to OSM data, but no content. On the contrary, for an OverpassAPI query to succeed, you need good OSM data. Yves ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 2:48 AM, yvecai yve...@gmail.com wrote: I would find more logical to make links between databases with queries rather by adding external references in one or the other. The later looks like the poor man job (oversimplifying, I don't want to put down the great job done at Wikidata). I disagree. If the goal is to make separate databases function as one big normalized database[1] such that there is no overlap in data, then these inter-database references are, in fact, necessary. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 01.07.2014 21:04, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: I disagree. If the goal is to make separate databases function as one big normalized database[1] such that there is no overlap in data, then these inter-database references are, in fact, necessary. I must admit, when I read 'big normalized database', I don't exactly read 'rich', or 'lifely', and I loose interest in this particular goal. Yves ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
Am 7/1/14 20:48 , schrieb yvecai: but no content Maybe not directly to OSM, but definitely to the maps you can make out of it. http://osm.lyrk.de/wappen/ I think this is a much better solution than upldating all those image links in OSM. And if you want to have them in OpenStreetMap you could write a bot that puts them there. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 01.07.2014 21:56, Andreas Goss wrote: Am 7/1/14 20:48 , schrieb yvecai: but no content Maybe not directly to OSM, but definitely to the maps you can make out of it. http://osm.lyrk.de/wappen/ I think this is a much better solution than upldating all those image links in OSM. And if you want to have them in OpenStreetMap you could write a bot that puts them there. This map could also be done with a third project linking OSM and Wikidata by automatically linking both datasets instead of manual tag entry of technical references. Call Overpass for OSM data (admin boundaries), then search wikimedia commons for flags with the corresponding name. I don't say it's already existing nor easy to do, but that would be a nice project. Yves ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
then search wikimedia commons for flags with the corresponding name. Which is going to fail, because there are names that exist more than once and always the risk of different spellings, especially in different languages. Also Wiki commons often does not care that much about creating pages/categories and using a meaningful filename. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
I've been experimenting with Wikidata a bit. I'm not a Wikipedian, rather a convinced Openstreetmapper. One of the problems I had with Wiktionary and Wikipedia is how data is duplicated over and over again. Wikidata finally started solving that. We should take advantage from that. Here are some examples of things I consider useful: Everything named after Guido Gezelle (mostly streets) http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=%28relation[%22name%3Aetymology%3Awikidata%22%3D%22Q336977%22]%3B%0A%3E%3E%3B%0A%3E%3B%0Away[%22name%3Aetymology%3Awikidata%22%3D%22Q336977%22]%3B%0A%3E%3B%0Anode[%22name%3Aetymology%3Awikidata%22%3D%22Q336977%22]%3B%29%3B%0Aout%20meta%3BC=51.98185;4.83689;7R Replace it with Q232785 and you get everything related to Father Damien. Unfortunately I didn't find where they buried his hands on Molokai. Polyglot 2014-07-02 0:22 GMT+02:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 01.07.2014 22:25, yvecai wrote: This map could also be done with a third project linking OSM and Wikidata by automatically linking both datasets instead of manual tag entry of technical references. Call Overpass for OSM data (admin boundaries), then search wikimedia commons for flags with the corresponding name. But why would you prefer such a vague and error-prone style of linking when unambiguous linking via ID is possible? Even in very simple cases this is going to break down. Searching for flag Austria on Wikimedia Commons, for example, gives you the following top three hits: 1. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Animated-Flag-Austria.gif 2. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_Austria_template.gif 3. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Smile-flag_Austria.gif The one we actually want is only ranked fourth: 4. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Austria.svg Wikidata, on the other hand, gets us straight to the one we want. How isn't this the better solution? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
2014-06-30 2:55 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I used wikipedia:operator instead of operator:wikipedia because the former is used way more often I think the semantics are different. The tag operator:wikipedia seems to me like the wikipedia page about the operator, while wikipedia:operator seems to be the operator of the wikipedia page (nonesense in this case, but e.g. for website:operator could have its sense). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
but I was aware it conflicts with the language version The best solution would be to just use Wikidata. If editors supported that, then they could also always show the titel of the Wikidata tag to avoid errors. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata I think part of the confusion comes from the wiki page of the key wikipedia=*, which still states the original (proposed) meaning with things like A link from St Paul's cathedral in London to an article about St Pauls is fine., which obviously is not the meaning people expect it to have nowadays. Which could also be solved by having tags for that. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 30/06/2014 10:34, Andreas Goss wrote: but I was aware it conflicts with the language version The best solution would be to just use Wikidata. If editors supported that, then they could also always show the titel of the Wikidata tag to avoid errors. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata So in this two particular cases (Bayford's head office and building, and Buxton College with its two websites), what _actual_ tag values would you suggest? Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
So in this two particular cases (Bayford's head office and building, and Buxton College with its two websites), what _actual_ tag values would you suggest? Cheers, Andy I think right now the tagging of the building is incomplete. If you want to tag Bayford Co on the building, then the building should have a tag office=company. At that moment the wiki or wikidata tag clearly refers to them. I don't see any tag in the proposal that fits so far, but something like building:wikidata= would probably make the most sense. If the building is important I would tag the company as a seperate node on the building and then there is no confusion with the basic tag anymore. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 30/06/2014 10:57, Andreas Goss wrote: If the building is important I would tag the company as a seperate node on the building and then there is no confusion with the basic tag anymore. I'd agree (that in the Bayford's HO case) having the company details on a node within the building would be the best way to go, but my question was really what should go on the other side of the equals sign. We're presumably suggesting wikidata=$something but what is $something? Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
2014-06-30 11:57 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: I think right now the tagging of the building is incomplete. If you want to tag Bayford Co on the building, then the building should have a tag office=company. At that moment the wiki or wikidata tag clearly refers to them. +1, the object seems inconsistent to me, as the name of the building seems to be Bowcliffe Hall, but this is only tagged as address, while the building name currently tagged is Bayford Group which doesn't sound like a building name. I'd suggest to split the object into a building and a company and add tags to the company to better describe it, e.g. office=car_dealer (or whatever they do). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
We're presumably suggesting wikidata=$something but what is $something? Every Wikidata entry has an ID. You can find it in the URL and behind the title: OpenStreetMap: Q936 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q936 So you would use wikidata=Q936 __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 30/06/2014 11:12, Andreas Goss wrote: We're presumably suggesting wikidata=$something but what is $something? Every Wikidata entry has an ID. You can find it in the URL and behind the title: OpenStreetMap: Q936 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q936 So you would use wikidata=Q936 That's the wikidata article for OSM, which isn't relevant to Bayford, or the building in which they are based. Which wikidata article(s) would be? Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
Bayford: operator:wikidata=Q4874513 The ones of my previous mail should also have been operator:wikidata Polyglot 2014-06-30 12:27 GMT+02:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: The University of Derby would be: wikidata:operator=Q3183295 Devonshire Royal Hospital wikidata:operator=Q5267877 Does the building itself also have wikipedia page? Polyglot 2014-06-30 12:12 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: We're presumably suggesting wikidata=$something but what is $something? Every Wikidata entry has an ID. You can find it in the URL and behind the title: OpenStreetMap: Q936 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q936 So you would use wikidata=Q936 __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
2014-06-30 12:27 GMT+02:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: The University of Derby would be: wikidata:operator=Q3183295 Devonshire Royal Hospital wikidata:operator=Q5267877 wouldn't operator:wikidata make more sense? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
Indeed, sorry about that. 2014-06-30 12:46 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-06-30 12:27 GMT+02:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: The University of Derby would be: wikidata:operator=Q3183295 Devonshire Royal Hospital wikidata:operator=Q5267877 wouldn't operator:wikidata make more sense? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
To clarify: wikipedia:operator is exactly the same thing as operator:wikipedia. Historically, the key wikipedia has the same order as the key source. It might seem strange since this conflicts with the language version, but that's simply the result of an organic growth of the tag's definition. 2014-06-30 7:47 GMT-03:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: Indeed, sorry about that. 2014-06-30 12:46 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-06-30 12:27 GMT+02:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: The University of Derby would be: wikidata:operator=Q3183295 Devonshire Royal Hospital wikidata:operator=Q5267877 wouldn't operator:wikidata make more sense? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On 30 June 2014 10:34, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: but I was aware it conflicts with the language version The best solution would be to just use Wikidata. If editors supported that, then they could also always show the titel of the Wikidata tag to avoid errors. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata I'm very strongly in faviour of tagging with Wikidata IDs; see my project proposal, at: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Pigsonthewing/Wikipedia but the level of understanding needed presents a high barrier to entry. I think we should continue to allow editors to tag with links to Wikipedia articles, but have the editing tool, or a bot, convert the tag to one with the equivalent Wikidata ID (or perhaps add a Wikidata tag, leaving the Wikipedia tag in situ). -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
I'm strongly in favour of having the order as described here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata The advantage is that they sort near to what they apply to, name:etymology:wikidata is near to name, operator:wikidata is near to operator and so on. I'm not sure why we have 2 pages describing wikidata in the wiki... both with different content. Polyglot 2014-06-30 13:19 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: On 30 June 2014 10:34, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: but I was aware it conflicts with the language version The best solution would be to just use Wikidata. If editors supported that, then they could also always show the titel of the Wikidata tag to avoid errors. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata I'm very strongly in faviour of tagging with Wikidata IDs; see my project proposal, at: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Pigsonthewing/Wikipedia but the level of understanding needed presents a high barrier to entry. I think we should continue to allow editors to tag with links to Wikipedia articles, but have the editing tool, or a bot, convert the tag to one with the equivalent Wikidata ID (or perhaps add a Wikidata tag, leaving the Wikipedia tag in situ). -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
I would advise to be cautious with adding wikidata tags with a bot, because a wikipedia article could have been moved and the wikidata tag would point to a wrong page. (i.e. the bot should also perform the standard checks even in this case) I believe leaving the wikipedia tag in place while adding the wikidata tag would be better in most cases. The main reason is that the wikipedia key is well established and supported in some sites, which either point a link to it or use some image from the page. 2014-06-30 8:19 GMT-03:00 Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: On 30 June 2014 10:34, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: but I was aware it conflicts with the language version The best solution would be to just use Wikidata. If editors supported that, then they could also always show the titel of the Wikidata tag to avoid errors. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata I'm very strongly in faviour of tagging with Wikidata IDs; see my project proposal, at: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Pigsonthewing/Wikipedia but the level of understanding needed presents a high barrier to entry. I think we should continue to allow editors to tag with links to Wikipedia articles, but have the editing tool, or a bot, convert the tag to one with the equivalent Wikidata ID (or perhaps add a Wikidata tag, leaving the Wikipedia tag in situ). -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 1:36 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: The main reason is that the wikipedia key is well established and supported in some sites, which either point a link to it or use some image from the page. No, the main reason is that the wikipedia key is still human readable where the wikidata is just an encrypted interdatabase foreign key. I would consider elements exclusively tagged with wikidata as a pollution (or -at least - incomplete constribution) in OSM, like any other unusable 'ref's to external resources. And one of the mentionned example is providing the building operator only through the wikipedia:operator where most of the data consumers are simply looking for the operator tag. I discover a semantic shift where traditional OSM tags are slowly replaced by wikipedia contributors eyes and habits. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
2014-06-30 13:18 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: To clarify: wikipedia:operator is exactly the same thing as operator:wikipedia. that's presumably how (most/all) people intended to use it, yes, but there is no guarantee, and there is indeed room for different interpretations as well. You'd also often have to guess/interpret/research which object is operated by the operator as many mappers tend to fuse different entities/features/objects into one osm-object (buildings and their users being the most common one, routes and roads are another one, or bridges and roads/railways, ...). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
Am 6/30/14 15:30 , schrieb Pieren: And one of the mentionned example is providing the building operator only through the wikipedia:operator where most of the data consumers are simply looking for the operator tag. I agree this should not happen, but can also be easily fixed by either a bot or quality assurance tools like keep right which tell you there is a operator:wikipedia tag without a operator tag. Although I have to say I see one advantage with Wikipedia and especially Wikidata tags is that they usually are more consistent, because people go on Wikipedia and copy the title or ID suggests it. When you manually enter it you can get a lot of different versions. And I think here this only happened, because addr:housename was used and what happened was that name= was basically the Operator. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Subsequent wikipedia links
Dear wikipedia taggers, There seems to be some doubt as to how the second and subsequent wikipedia links are handled. Here's an example of the problem: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/117544396/history Of the six versions 2 are initially mapping it and refining the mapping; the other four are Mispelled or erroneous tags, multiple fix, Mispelled or erroneous tags (again), and fixing typos in key wikipedia and correcting some variants (which seems to think that there's a wikipedia language called operator). Another example (this time with 7 non-mapping revisions) is: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/118355113/history Would it be possible for wikipedia taggers to come to some sort of agreement as to the valid tagging _before_ hitting the editor? Otherwise, this one will run and run. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
