Re: [Tagging] Tagging dangerous intersections

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Kieron Thwaites 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I recently passed through an intersection in a particularly dodgy part
> of town that actually had warning signs up, warning motorists that
> said intersection is a hotspot for "smash and grab" robberies.  (If
> anyone is interested, it's on Google Streetview too:
> https://goo.gl/maps/kYkdMR9Kmpk)
>

Not getting into the ethics (I've got a pretty strong moral objection to
navigation for literally avoiding social issues) or legal issues (Microsoft
holds a patent on it) of an "avoid ghetto" feature, one could potentially
work out a traffic_sign=* tag for this feature to indicate the location of
such signs.


> I'd like to add this information to OSM -- certainly, it could be used
> by routing software to avoid the area unless there was no other
> sensible alternative.  However, I'm not sure how best to tag it.  The
> only thing that I've found is the proposed "hazard" tag
> (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard), but as
> it seems to be in a permanent draft state (since 2009), I'm not sure
> if this is the best solution.
>
> Are there better, more current ways of tagging things like these, or
> is the proposed "hazard" tag the best option?
>
> (As an aside: if we go with the "hazard" tag, perhaps some work on
> completing the proposal and getting it approved would be a good idea.
> taginfo shows a few thousand usages to date.)
>

I'd be more inclined to use a hazard=* type tag to indicate locations that
have signs up indicating a tangible and consistent threat, such as might be
the case with intersections marked with a "High Collision Intersection"
sign or "Fatality" sign frequently found in British Columbia or "Dangerous
Intersection" found in Oregon, or the white crosses indicating where people
have died in a traffic accident on Montana's state highways (though in that
case, it might be more appropriate to tag them as roadside crosses instead
or additionally).  Such information could potentially used to alert the
user to the situation as well (for example, Osmand could say something like
"Attention, dangerous intersection" or "Attention, dangerous curve" or
something to that nature).

As an aside, there is already standardized treatments for such situations
in the MUTCD in both the US and Canada that already have tagging available,
such as traffic_calming=rumble_strip, or however one might tag optical
speed bars
,
which I've seen on several highways in the mountain west on downhill lanes.
Whether or not this actually gets employed by the DOT seems to be a
regional consideration, with notable outliers being BC's nonstandard
signage that speak specifically to the hazard on one end of the spectrum,
and the Texas/Oklahoma/Kansas tendency to be very by the book in using
rumble strips in conjunction with standard signage like "Sharp Curve Ahead"
at the end of a long straightaway, "Signal Ahead", "Stop Ahead" and
"Reduced Speed Ahead" signage at problem locations.
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging dangerous intersections

[John Willis]

> On Nov 11, 2015, at 1:15 AM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> For start, traffic sign itself may be also mapped. It would also make
> clear that hazard (or other method to tag this) is based on something
> verifiable, not opinion of the mapper.

Sounds like a similar situation  to the advisory sign discussion (non-rule/law 
based signs giving information to motorists) 

Traffic_sign:advisory=carjacking
Coupled with whatever hazard=* you want to throw on it. 

(Or similar, I forget the exact tag syntax at the moment...)

I'm sure there are plenty of situations where "no stopping because of natural 
danger" exist. 

One of the roads up a volcano here (Kusatsu-Shirane) in Japan is surrounded by 
sulphur vents. There is an advisory to roll up windows and not to stop, to 
avoid the smell and possible asphyxiation (if there is a big burp of sulphur). 

It's not too much of a stretch to use it for a social danger *if* the signage 
actually exists.

If it is just your opinion, that is also debatable, as we do strive to get the 
local mapper's ground truth - but without a sign, that certainly is a big can 
of worms. 

With a sign - we're just mapping signs.

- theft of valuables (don't leave valuables in the car)
- car theft (lock your car!) 
- pickpockets / bag thieves  
- prison (no stopping for hitchhikers) 

Also, natural warning signs 
- dangerous animals (lions, bears, Pumas, snakes, etc) in rural/backcountry 
trailheads 
- land mines (certain countries)  
-tsunami zone (entering a low area) 
- turn car wheels to curb (very steep hill parking) 

These signs may not be necessary, but for micromappers who are mapping the 
vending machines' serial numbers (found in Tokyo), having a decent framework 
for advisory signs themselves to be mapped (regardless if they are rendered) 
should be considered. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging dangerous intersections

[André Pirard]

On 2015-11-10 10:24, Kieron Thwaites wrote :
> Hi,
>
> I recently passed through an intersection in a particularly dodgy part
> of town that actually had warning signs up, warning motorists that
> said intersection is a hotspot for "smash and grab" robberies.  (If
> anyone is interested, it's on Google Streetview too:
> https://goo.gl/maps/kYkdMR9Kmpk)
>
> I'd like to add this information to OSM -- certainly, it could be used
> by routing software to avoid the area unless there was no other
> sensible alternative.  However, I'm not sure how best to tag it.  The
> only thing that I've found is the proposed "hazard" tag
> (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard), but as
> it seems to be in a permanent draft state (since 2009), I'm not sure
> if this is the best solution.
Of course yes it would be the best solution to resurrect that draft
.
Presently, OSM takes little care for road security, especially for children.
And it's not a good reason to neglect the existing kitchen because there
are no eggs.
I have mapped a number of 30km/h zones.
I was literally abashed that, among all the zones mapped in Belgium,
Germany, France and Netherlands, not a single one indicated a school
zone

hazard.
I stopped my mapping because I don't like to redo everything correctly
later.

On 2015-11-10 17:15, Mateusz Konieczny wrote :
> For start, traffic sign itself may be also mapped. It would also make
> clear that hazard (or other method to tag this) is based on something
> verifiable, not opinion of the mapper.
The problem, as with most traffic signs, is that they are not located
where the problem is and that, as I see them used, they do not even
indicate the direction to where it is.
As well as duplicating other information albeit the word "duplicate" is
spoken as an OSM sin.
GSM software is perfectly able to draw most traffic signs on the screen
without an added element.

André.




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging dangerous intersections

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:24:13 +0200
Kieron Thwaites  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I recently passed through an intersection in a particularly dodgy part
> of town that actually had warning signs up, warning motorists that
> said intersection is a hotspot for "smash and grab" robberies.  (If
> anyone is interested, it's on Google Streetview too:
> https://goo.gl/maps/kYkdMR9Kmpk)
> 
> I'd like to add this information to OSM -- certainly, it could be used
> by routing software to avoid the area unless there was no other
> sensible alternative.  However, I'm not sure how best to tag it.  The
> only thing that I've found is the proposed "hazard" tag
> (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard), but as
> it seems to be in a permanent draft state (since 2009), I'm not sure
> if this is the best solution.
> 
> Are there better, more current ways of tagging things like these, or
> is the proposed "hazard" tag the best option?
> 
> (As an aside: if we go with the "hazard" tag, perhaps some work on
> completing the proposal and getting it approved would be a good idea.
> taginfo shows a few thousand usages to date.)
> 
> --K
> 
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For start, traffic sign itself may be also mapped. It would also make
clear that hazard (or other method to tag this) is based on something
verifiable, not opinion of the mapper.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging dangerous intersections

[Tom Pfeifer]

The situation you describe is a social hazard, and if continued it
would lead to mapping social hotspots in general, which would be
a very controversial issue, that could be seen as discrimination
by people living there.

In larger towns you see lots of warnings, e.g. pickpocketing in
crowded places or public transport systems -- where would we draw the line?

tom

Kieron Thwaites wrote on 2015-11-10 10:24:

Hi,

I recently passed through an intersection in a particularly dodgy part
of town that actually had warning signs up, warning motorists that
said intersection is a hotspot for "smash and grab" robberies.  (If
anyone is interested, it's on Google Streetview too:
https://goo.gl/maps/kYkdMR9Kmpk)

I'd like to add this information to OSM -- certainly, it could be used
by routing software to avoid the area unless there was no other
sensible alternative.  However, I'm not sure how best to tag it.  The
only thing that I've found is the proposed "hazard" tag
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard), but as
it seems to be in a permanent draft state (since 2009), I'm not sure
if this is the best solution.

Are there better, more current ways of tagging things like these, or
is the proposed "hazard" tag the best option?



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[Tagging] Tagging dangerous intersections

[Kieron Thwaites]

Hi,

I recently passed through an intersection in a particularly dodgy part
of town that actually had warning signs up, warning motorists that
said intersection is a hotspot for "smash and grab" robberies.  (If
anyone is interested, it's on Google Streetview too:
https://goo.gl/maps/kYkdMR9Kmpk)

I'd like to add this information to OSM -- certainly, it could be used
by routing software to avoid the area unless there was no other
sensible alternative.  However, I'm not sure how best to tag it.  The
only thing that I've found is the proposed "hazard" tag
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard), but as
it seems to be in a permanent draft state (since 2009), I'm not sure
if this is the best solution.

Are there better, more current ways of tagging things like these, or
is the proposed "hazard" tag the best option?

(As an aside: if we go with the "hazard" tag, perhaps some work on
completing the proposal and getting it approved would be a good idea.
taginfo shows a few thousand usages to date.)

--K

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