Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Mark Wagner]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:27:01 +1100
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 23/10/18 05:04, Yves wrote:
> > Daniel, Mateusz and others: if nobody care to review those sub 
> > stations, this means they need care.
> > That's more a concern than an old tag in the DB.
> > You want them re tagged, then advertise for this and bring other 
> > people into this, like in 'build a community' .
> > Or do it automatically and let them rot.  
> 
> If nobody cares then a simply auto edit. These same nobodies will not 
> care if any errors of the past get replicated into the future.
> 
> Of the ones I have just reviewed, some 56 of them - 2 were potential 
> errors .. one looks to have been caused by an automatic edit that was 
> then incorrectly reverted .. not certain what happens there! There
> other looks to be a human error .. a turning circle and a substation
> on the same node?
> 
> So about a 4% error rate if unchecked. It is a small sample size ..
> so an error rate of, say, 8% could be forecast?

4-8% seems about right.  Of the 29 "power=station" that I just checked,
two are probably substations, but might be small-scale generating
plants instead, while two didn't look like part of the power
infrastructure at all.  Since I couldn't tell from aerial imagery what
the correct tag was, I left all four at the clearly incorrect
"power=station" so that a future user could easily identify what needs
work.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Warin]

On 23/10/18 05:04, Yves wrote:
Daniel, Mateusz and others: if nobody care to review those sub 
stations, this means they need care.

That's more a concern than an old tag in the DB.
You want them re tagged, then advertise for this and bring other 
people into this, like in 'build a community' .

Or do it automatically and let them rot.


If nobody cares then a simply auto edit. These same nobodies will not 
care if any errors of the past get replicated into the future.


Of the ones I have just reviewed, some 56 of them - 2 were potential 
errors .. one looks to have been caused by an automatic edit that was 
then incorrectly reverted .. not certain what happens there! There other 
looks to be a human error .. a turning circle and a substation on the 
same node?


So about a 4% error rate if unchecked. It is a small sample size .. so 
an error rate of, say, 8% could be forecast?


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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Warin]

On 23/10/18 07:53, marc marc wrote:

Le 22. 10. 18 à 14:01, Dave Swarthout a écrit :

Well, there you go. Mass edits are frowned upon even if the potential
for making a mistake is low. Is it worse to have a few power=sub_station
objects that should really be power=plant instead of an enormous number
of objects with deprecated tags?

Well, ppl create a new value power=substation to get rid
of the multi-meaning (like we have with power=minor_line)
between a generator, a plant and a substation.
Trying to move the trash (the "few" remaining objects)
in one of those 3 new/clean values look strange, isn't it ?

I have checked/fixed a few power=sub_station with generator:* plant:*
142 power=station or sub_station + substation=* remain
and are easy to fix.


On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:09 PM Volker Schmidt wrote:
 "revert mechanical edit

the main issue is that a mecanical edit need :
- talk
- a wiki page
- widely accepted and make an exception for edits for a few dissenters
with their edits or area... that's hard to do at the global level
and it look like that the reverted mecanical edit folling none of this.

I participated in the cleaning in France, Switzerland, Belgium.
In some countries there are only a few ambiguous objects that
the local community can quickly fix if they wanted to.

For other countries, it may be necessary to discuss an operation
at the country level. But that need a few mappers willing to relay it
the main issue look like to be in Germany ~6k sub_station and UK ~4k



What would motivate people is if the renders stop rendering the old tags.
Similar to the old multipolygons .. as soon as that stooped people got going 
fixing them.


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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[marc marc]

Le 22. 10. 18 à 14:01, Dave Swarthout a écrit :
> Well, there you go. Mass edits are frowned upon even if the potential 
> for making a mistake is low. Is it worse to have a few power=sub_station 
> objects that should really be power=plant instead of an enormous number 
> of objects with deprecated tags?

Well, ppl create a new value power=substation to get rid
of the multi-meaning (like we have with power=minor_line)
between a generator, a plant and a substation.
Trying to move the trash (the "few" remaining objects)
in one of those 3 new/clean values look strange, isn't it ?

I have checked/fixed a few power=sub_station with generator:* plant:*
142 power=station or sub_station + substation=* remain
and are easy to fix.

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:09 PM Volker Schmidt wrote:
> "revert mechanical edit

the main issue is that a mecanical edit need :
- talk
- a wiki page
- widely accepted and make an exception for edits for a few dissenters 
with their edits or area... that's hard to do at the global level
and it look like that the reverted mecanical edit folling none of this.

I participated in the cleaning in France, Switzerland, Belgium.
In some countries there are only a few ambiguous objects that
the local community can quickly fix if they wanted to.

For other countries, it may be necessary to discuss an operation
at the country level. But that need a few mappers willing to relay it
the main issue look like to be in Germany ~6k sub_station and UK ~4k

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Yves]

Daniel, Mateusz and others: if nobody care to review those sub stations, this 
means they need care. 
That's more a concern than an old tag in the DB.
You want them re tagged, then advertise for this and bring other people into 
this, like in 'build a community' .
Or do it automatically and let them rot.
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.10.2018 o 18:17, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> I agree that manual review  of anything improbes map, but I am not sure
>
> why mistagged power=sub_station is better or worse than mistagged
>
> power=substation
>

I think that in this case automatic update is a victim of general
thinking about automated edits. When the decision is needed, automated
edits should be banned, but there's no need for deciding anything.

Trying to do both scheme update and everything-else-by-the-way is bad,
because manual review is of course possible after automated update, and
waiting for manual action causes long term tag fragmentation.


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22. Oct 2018 17:28 by frede...@remote.org :


> On 10/22/18 11:03, François Lacombe wrote:
>> Even if sub_station is often 1:1 of substation, this have to be replaced
>> carefully since objects can have been mis tagged as power=sub_station.
>> In France, last objects where removed this summer. There was about 150
>> of them and it was not so hard to review each one.
>
> I think a manual review is certainly better than an automated
> conversion. If an object uses a tagging scheme that has long since been
> replaced with a new one, maybe the object itself has also ceased to
> exist, or demands some kind of change.
>
> Manual review may be slower but yields a higher-quality result.
>




I agree that manual review  of anything improbes map, but I am not sure

why mistagged power=sub_station is better or worse than mistagged

power=substation

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[Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/22/18 11:03, François Lacombe wrote:
> Even if sub_station is often 1:1 of substation, this have to be replaced
> carefully since objects can have been mis tagged as power=sub_station.
> In France, last objects where removed this summer. There was about 150
> of them and it was not so hard to review each one.

I think a manual review is certainly better than an automated
conversion. If an object uses a tagging scheme that has long since been
replaced with a new one, maybe the object itself has also ceased to
exist, or demands some kind of change.

Manual review may be slower but yields a higher-quality result.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.10.2018 o 13:07, Volker Schmidt pisze:
> Regarding sub_station, there seems to have been  a  revert three month
> ago of the results of a maproulette task


Thanks for the info - I have asked who complained, so we could talk.

I also asked the author of the wiki warning against mechanical edits and
I wait for his reaction:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Polderrunner#power.3Dsub_station_-.3E_power.3Dsubstation


> this claimed to be a maproulette edit but nobody can edit 12,000
> objects with the required diligence in such a short time


It was perfectly possible to remove 300k uses of landuse=farm in about 2
months:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2554#issuecomment-288390777

so I guess this is also possible. Removing a "_" sign from the name
should be even easier and less error prone, because you don't even have
to choose (farmyard or farmland). Let's see!... :-)


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Dave Swarthout]

Well, there you go. Mass edits are frowned upon even if the potential for
making a mistake is low. Is it worse to have a few power=sub_station
objects that should really be power=plant instead of an enormous number of
objects with deprecated tags?  Good question, but one that must remain
academic in scope.

We'll just have to wait until hell freezes over to see those deprecated
tags disappear.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:09 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> Regarding sub_station, there seems to have been  a  revert three month ago
> of the results of a maproulette task
> sub_station > substation.
> according this changeset comment on one of the sub_station nodes
>  in my area:
> "revert mechanical edit of power=sub_station after complaints from the
> community. this claimed to be a maproulette edit but nobody can edit 12,000
> objects with the required diligence in such a short time
> Edited 3 months ago by woodpeck_repair"
> 
>
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 11:05, François Lacombe 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thank you to talk about this.
>>
>> Definitely ok to retag remaining sub_station and station
>> This helps a lot to clean up power=* key.
>>
>> Even if sub_station is often 1:1 of substation, this have to be replaced
>> carefully since objects can have been mis tagged as power=sub_station.
>> In France, last objects where removed this summer. There was about 150 of
>> them and it was not so hard to review each one.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>> *François Lacombe*
>>
>> fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
>> www.infos-reseaux.com
>> @InfosReseaux 
>>
>>
>> Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 05:32, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>>> On 22/10/18 14:17, Daniel Koć wrote:
>>> > W dniu 22.10.2018 o 05:06, Dave Swarthout pisze:
>>> >> It would seem an easy fix to change all power=sub_station tags to
>>> >> power=substation without an individual inspection.
>>> > I'm surprised that automated conversion is discouraged on the wiki page
>>> > in this case. Seems like simple 1:1 objects mapping. Could we make mass
>>> > edition for this scheme?
>>>
>>> Agree it should be a 1:1 automated conversion.
>>> Possibly the warning has been a copy and paste?
>>> Contact with the author of the warning might be informative.
>>>
>>>
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Volker Schmidt]

Regarding sub_station, there seems to have been  a  revert three month ago
of the results of a maproulette task
sub_station > substation.
according this changeset comment on one of the sub_station nodes
 in my area:
"revert mechanical edit of power=sub_station after complaints from the
community. this claimed to be a maproulette edit but nobody can edit 12,000
objects with the required diligence in such a short time
Edited 3 months ago by woodpeck_repair"


On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 11:05, François Lacombe 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thank you to talk about this.
>
> Definitely ok to retag remaining sub_station and station
> This helps a lot to clean up power=* key.
>
> Even if sub_station is often 1:1 of substation, this have to be replaced
> carefully since objects can have been mis tagged as power=sub_station.
> In France, last objects where removed this summer. There was about 150 of
> them and it was not so hard to review each one.
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> *François Lacombe*
>
> fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
> www.infos-reseaux.com
> @InfosReseaux 
>
>
> Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 05:32, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>> On 22/10/18 14:17, Daniel Koć wrote:
>> > W dniu 22.10.2018 o 05:06, Dave Swarthout pisze:
>> >> It would seem an easy fix to change all power=sub_station tags to
>> >> power=substation without an individual inspection.
>> > I'm surprised that automated conversion is discouraged on the wiki page
>> > in this case. Seems like simple 1:1 objects mapping. Could we make mass
>> > edition for this scheme?
>>
>> Agree it should be a 1:1 automated conversion.
>> Possibly the warning has been a copy and paste?
>> Contact with the author of the warning might be informative.
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[François Lacombe]

Hi,

Thank you to talk about this.

Definitely ok to retag remaining sub_station and station
This helps a lot to clean up power=* key.

Even if sub_station is often 1:1 of substation, this have to be replaced
carefully since objects can have been mis tagged as power=sub_station.
In France, last objects where removed this summer. There was about 150 of
them and it was not so hard to review each one.

All the best

François

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 


Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 05:32, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> On 22/10/18 14:17, Daniel Koć wrote:
> > W dniu 22.10.2018 o 05:06, Dave Swarthout pisze:
> >> It would seem an easy fix to change all power=sub_station tags to
> >> power=substation without an individual inspection.
> > I'm surprised that automated conversion is discouraged on the wiki page
> > in this case. Seems like simple 1:1 objects mapping. Could we make mass
> > edition for this scheme?
>
> Agree it should be a 1:1 automated conversion.
> Possibly the warning has been a copy and paste?
> Contact with the author of the warning might be informative.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Warin]

On 22/10/18 14:17, Daniel Koć wrote:

W dniu 22.10.2018 o 05:06, Dave Swarthout pisze:

It would seem an easy fix to change all power=sub_station tags to
power=substation without an individual inspection.

I'm surprised that automated conversion is discouraged on the wiki page
in this case. Seems like simple 1:1 objects mapping. Could we make mass
edition for this scheme?


Agree it should be a 1:1 automated conversion.
Possibly the warning has been a copy and paste?
Contact with the author of the warning might be informative.


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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.10.2018 o 05:06, Dave Swarthout pisze:
> It would seem an easy fix to change all power=sub_station tags to
> power=substation without an individual inspection.

I'm surprised that automated conversion is discouraged on the wiki page
in this case. Seems like simple 1:1 objects mapping. Could we make mass
edition for this scheme?

> I think most new mappers already use the newer tagging guidelines but
> I'm not sure what mechanism you could use to get the message out to
> all concerned.

OSM ecosystem is highly distributed, so there's no way to reach
everybody. But the last time we asked to remove landuse=farm on this
list, it worked very effective (removing ~300.000 uses in just 2 months).


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Dave Swarthout]

It would seem an easy fix to change all power=sub_station tags to
power=substation without an individual inspection. The other tag,
power=station, is much more problematical because one cannot know for sure
if that tag is correct.

I think most new mappers already use the newer tagging guidelines but I'm
not sure what mechanism you could use to get the message out to all
concerned.

Dave

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:22 AM Daniel Koć  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It has been noted that we still render power=station and
> power=sub_station in OSM Carto, even if they are both deprecated and
> replacement tags are much more popular by now:
>
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3305#issuecomment-414058220
>
>
> I would be happy to get rid of them eventually, but I'd like to take
> some time before doing that, because they still have some share in a
> database:
>
> - power=station - 5 016 uses -
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Apower%3Dstation
>
> - power=sub_station - 17 514 uses -
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsub_station
>
>
> Could we reduce their usage further now (or maybe even eradicate them)?
>
>
> --
> "Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Upcoming removal of power=station and power=sub_station in the standard style

[Daniel Koć]

Hi,

It has been noted that we still render power=station and
power=sub_station in OSM Carto, even if they are both deprecated and
replacement tags are much more popular by now:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3305#issuecomment-414058220


I would be happy to get rid of them eventually, but I'd like to take
some time before doing that, because they still have some share in a
database:

- power=station - 5 016 uses -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Apower%3Dstation

- power=sub_station - 17 514 uses -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsub_station


Could we reduce their usage further now (or maybe even eradicate them)?


-- 
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