Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[John Willis via Tagging]

I have come across this issue too. 

I realize that in some countries, they have signals and roads and full blown 
intersections just for bikes, but many cycling roads in Japan:

A) dead-end onto footways, not roads, as the ways are often treated as footways 
with a special designation for cycling - not "roads" - and are built to that 
standard. They simply don't interact with the roads as roads, but like "cycling 
footways". 

B) have pedestrian-style zebra crossings, with pedestrian-style controls 
(bollards, cones, curb cuts, crossing buttons), not stop signs, signals or 
other road "intersection" style features. 

C) often have no crossing (a physical barrier blocks crossing the road) - and 
cyclists have to join footway traffic, go to a footway's marked crossing, then 
rejoin the cycleway on the other side of the major road, further reinforcing 
that their crossings (when available) are similar. We also have unmarked 
crossing as well - to cover all the situations for footways - the same should 
be available for cycleways. 

D) crosswalks and other types of marked footway crossings have tagging 
customized for them - which are the exact same ones that are used for cycleways 
in (some parts of) the real world. Tying a zebra crossings to footway tagging 
is not something that exists in the real world, but a construct of the OSM 
tagging scheme. 

E) cycleways in OSM are in the same tagging category as path/ footway/ 
bridleway (a way by default not used by cars, unlike all others) but we are 
expected to tag how cycleways interact with roads *completely differently* than 
footways - a way similar to cars (when it is not done that way in some places). 
Seems wrong. 

If I see a zebra crossing with a cut curb and a bollard (I have hit a few 
bollards, broken my bike, but they love them here) for a cycleway to cross a 
road, plastered with signs and warnings to cyclists (pained on the ground) to 
stop just like a pedestrian - that to me is a "marked crossing" - not  
road-road intersection. Its existence as a *crossingway* that is heavily 
marked, painted, barriers, and signed  - not a normal stretch of cycleway or 
footway - and the lack of tagging for it is something to be remedied. 

Javbw

> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:17 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> The fact that the road is crossed by is crossed by a cycleway is already 
> defined by the "highway" tags' values of the two crossing highways.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28. Jan 2019, at 10:59, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> representing a way in OSM, and foot=yes on the way (can be implicit),
> but foot=no on the X representing the bicycle crossing, pedestrians
> cannot pass point 'X'.
> At least that is how I understand the current access rules in OSM.


right, it might lead to problems, better not put it, it could prevent the 
router from routing pedestrians on the road.

Thank you for pointing it out

Cheers, Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 6:30 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 27. Jan 2019, at 12:29, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > But often, the cycleway crossing the road is not mapped. How would you
> > map a bicycle only crossing if the parallel cycleway is mapped as
> > cycleway=lane on the highway=x ?
>
>
> foot=no on the highway=crossing node
> Also if the cycleway is mapped explicitly it would make sense (if it were 
> forbidden for pedestrians to cross the street there), because it could still 
> mean there’s an implicit footway crossing otherwise.


foot=no means that pedestrians cannot pass that node for any way
passing through the node, not ?


so if you have


--X--->

representing a way in OSM, and foot=yes on the way (can be implicit),
but foot=no on the X representing the bicycle crossing, pedestrians
cannot pass point 'X'.
At least that is how I understand the current access rules in OSM.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Sergio Manzi]

Actualy the "left side" highway continues to have cycle traffic throughout, so 
the "triangle" will be:

  * 1 side for motor vehicles
  * 1 side for cycles
  * 1 side for mixed traffic

Sergio

On 2019-01-27 23:59, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> If I understand it correctly, you have 2 higways (both with cycleway=lane) 
> that connect at a node further away, but cycles should cross at that point, 
> before the point where motor traffic merge into one way.
>
> In that point I'd probably draw a cycleway (no motor traffic, no pedestrian) 
> between the two merging highways (just between two nodes of each one). I'd 
> also remove cycling traffic from the remaining part of the two merging 
> highways.
>
> That will "explode" the merging of the two highways into a triangle with one 
> side reserved to cycles and the two others for motor traffic: I think this 
> fairly describe the situation in the field too...
>
> Sergio
>
> On 2019-01-27 23:36, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 21:30, Marc Gemis > > wrote:
>>
>> But often, the cycleway crossing the road is not mapped. How would you
>> map a bicycle only crossing if the parallel cycleway is mapped as
>> cycleway=lane on the highway=x ?
>>
>>  
>> Such as this: 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5356863,153.5389423,3a,15.3y,165.86h,89.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJJj7Mh5qWh9ZUSSe6Tq8Eg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>> followed by:
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5363076,153.5387017,3a,22.6y,165.5h,87.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6KYcD3pJCuNSJJp0naJtbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>  &
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5365823,153.5385796,3a,75y,146.16h,76.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4ZGc0iH3H6EsO7jwYpGilg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Sergio Manzi]

If I understand it correctly, you have 2 higways (both with cycleway=lane) that 
connect at a node further away, but cycles should cross at that point, before 
the point where motor traffic merge into one way.

In that point I'd probably draw a cycleway (no motor traffic, no pedestrian) 
between the two merging highways (just between two nodes of each one). I'd also 
remove cycling traffic from the remaining part of the two merging highways.

That will "explode" the merging of the two highways into a triangle with one 
side reserved to cycles and the two others for motor traffic: I think this 
fairly describe the situation in the field too...

Sergio

On 2019-01-27 23:36, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 21:30, Marc Gemis  > wrote:
>
> But often, the cycleway crossing the road is not mapped. How would you
> map a bicycle only crossing if the parallel cycleway is mapped as
> cycleway=lane on the highway=x ?
>
>  
> Such as this: 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5356863,153.5389423,3a,15.3y,165.86h,89.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJJj7Mh5qWh9ZUSSe6Tq8Eg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> followed by:
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5363076,153.5387017,3a,22.6y,165.5h,87.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6KYcD3pJCuNSJJp0naJtbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>  &
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5365823,153.5385796,3a,75y,146.16h,76.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4ZGc0iH3H6EsO7jwYpGilg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 21:30, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> But often, the cycleway crossing the road is not mapped. How would you
> map a bicycle only crossing if the parallel cycleway is mapped as
> cycleway=lane on the highway=x ?


Such as this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5356863,153.5389423,3a,15.3y,165.86h,89.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJJj7Mh5qWh9ZUSSe6Tq8Eg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
followed by:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5363076,153.5387017,3a,22.6y,165.5h,87.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6KYcD3pJCuNSJJp0naJtbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
&
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.5365823,153.5385796,3a,75y,146.16h,76.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4ZGc0iH3H6EsO7jwYpGilg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Jan 2019, at 12:29, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> But often, the cycleway crossing the road is not mapped. How would you
> map a bicycle only crossing if the parallel cycleway is mapped as
> cycleway=lane on the highway=x ?


foot=no on the highway=crossing node
Also if the cycleway is mapped explicitly it would make sense (if it were 
forbidden for pedestrians to cross the street there), because it could still 
mean there’s an implicit footway crossing otherwise.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Jérôme Seigneuret]

Hi the problem is more in relation to crossing_ref. there is no description
at this level for cycleway crossings. Bicycle crossing is not zebra.

I prefer to use crossin_ref = bicycle
Because crossing is used with uncontrolled or traffic_signals
Jérôme


Le dim. 27 janv. 2019 à 12:30, Marc Gemis  a écrit :

> But often, the cycleway crossing the road is not mapped. How would you
> map a bicycle only crossing if the parallel cycleway is mapped as
> cycleway=lane on the highway=x ?
>
> Then you need a point, and as you wrote access=bicycle or foot=no do
> not work, as pedestrians and cars can follow the highway=x.
>
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:42 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 27/01/19 19:51, OSMDoudou wrote:
> >
> > >> can only be used by cyclist
> > > The “access” tag allows to express this.
> >
> > If it is only used by cyclist ... what  do the cars on the street do?
> Turn around to find another route?
> >
> > As stated before ...
> >
> > The ways say what is on them. One way for the bicycles in this case and
> the other way I assume for motor vehicles.
> >
> > The node states the crossing features - traffic lights, uncontrolled ...
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Marc Gemis]

But often, the cycleway crossing the road is not mapped. How would you
map a bicycle only crossing if the parallel cycleway is mapped as
cycleway=lane on the highway=x ?

Then you need a point, and as you wrote access=bicycle or foot=no do
not work, as pedestrians and cars can follow the highway=x.

On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:42 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 27/01/19 19:51, OSMDoudou wrote:
>
> >> can only be used by cyclist
> > The “access” tag allows to express this.
>
> If it is only used by cyclist ... what  do the cars on the street do? Turn 
> around to find another route?
>
> As stated before ...
>
> The ways say what is on them. One way for the bicycles in this case and the 
> other way I assume for motor vehicles.
>
> The node states the crossing features - traffic lights, uncontrolled ...
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Warin]

On 27/01/19 19:51, OSMDoudou wrote:


can only be used by cyclist

The “access” tag allows to express this.


If it is only used by cyclist ... what  do the cars on the street do? Turn 
around to find another route?

As stated before ...

The ways say what is on them. One way for the bicycles in this case and the 
other way I assume for motor vehicles.

The node states the crossing features - traffic lights, uncontrolled ...



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[OSMDoudou]

> can only be used by cyclist

The “access” tag allows to express this.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Marc Gemis]

Someone proposed highway=bicycle_crossing [1]. The rationale is to be
able to express crossings that can only be used by cyclist.

m.



[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/bicycle_crossing

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jan 2019, at 15:17, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> The fact that the road is crossed by is crossed by a cycleway is already 
> defined by the "highway" tags' values of the two crossing highways.


+1, I would go with highway=crossing and crossing=type of crossing, on the 
crossing node and highway=cycleway cycleway=crossing on the crossing part of 
the cycleway (way)

Cheers, Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Hubert87]

Hi yopaseopor,

I think that
    highway=crossing
    crossing=uncontrolled
is also the excepted way of tagging for cycleways crossings.
You could add
    bicycle=yes
to that (crossing) Node to mark that this is bicycle crossing (,too).

Hubert87

Am 26.01.2019 um 15:17 schrieb Volker Schmidt:



On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 at 12:05, yo paseopor > wrote:


Hi!

Now I'm tagging with the more detail I can some cycleways in
Catalonia. I do al the ways, and I cut and mark all the crossings.
I do this with the formula
highway=cycleway
cycleway=crossing
as a way (like I do other times with
highway=footway
footway=crossing
for mark all the pedestrian crossing. But I have a dilemma. When I
want to tag the exact point in the cycleway crossing with the road
I would use highway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
...but it is not so detailed enough so I think about a
crossing=cycleway

The fact that the road is crossed by is crossed by a cycleway is 
already defined by the "highway" tags' values of the two crossing 
highways.
The values of the "crossing" tag describe properties of the crossing 
itself, not of the crossing ways.


highway=crossing
crossing=cycleway
would be a good formula.
What do you think?

I think it is not in line with existing tagging





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Markus]

Hi!

I don't think cycleway=crossing is a good idea because crossing=* key
specifies whether a crossing has traffic signals, is only marked
(uncontrolled) or unmarked. However, bicycle crossing can also have
traffic lights or be only marked (and likely there are also unmarked
bicycle crossings). With crossing=cycleway you won't be able to
specify any of these crossing types.

Besides, highway=crossing is currently either used for pedestrian-only
crossings or for crossings for pedestrians and cyclists or riders.

Therefore a new highway=bicycle_crossing tag for bicycle-only
crossings might be best.

(By the way, a tiger crossing is an unsignalised crossing for cyclists
*and pedestrians*.)

Regards

Markus

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[Volker Schmidt]

On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 at 12:05, yo paseopor  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Now I'm tagging with the more detail I can some cycleways in Catalonia. I
> do al the ways, and I cut and mark all the crossings. I do this with the
> formula
> highway=cycleway
> cycleway=crossing
> as a way (like I do other times with
> highway=footway
> footway=crossing
> for mark all the pedestrian crossing. But I have a dilemma. When I want to
> tag the exact point in the cycleway crossing with the road I would use
> highway=crossing
> crossing=uncontrolled
> ...but it is not so detailed enough so I think about a
> crossing=cycleway
>
The fact that the road is crossed by is crossed by a cycleway is already
defined by the "highway" tags' values of the two crossing highways.
The values of the "crossing" tag describe properties of the crossing
itself, not of the crossing ways.

highway=crossing
> crossing=cycleway
> would be a good formula.
> What do you think?
>

I think it is not in line with existing tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] crossing=cycleway as a node

[yo paseopor]

Hi!

Now I'm tagging with the more detail I can some cycleways in Catalonia. I
do al the ways, and I cut and mark all the crossings. I do this with the
formula
highway=cycleway
cycleway=crossing
as a way (like I do other times with
highway=footway
footway=crossing
for mark all the pedestrian crossing. But I have a dilemma. When I want to
tag the exact point in the cycleway crossing with the road I would use
highway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
...but it is not so detailed enough so I think about a
crossing=cycleway
to mark this exact point...but crossing=cycleway does not exist. And if I
use the formula
highway=cycleway
cycleway=crossing
as a node is repetitive (517 cases says taginfo) .
Also I think about using
crossing_ref=tiger
(1542 cases says taginfo) but as I'm not in Great Britain and I think
animals crossing references are not useful in global tagging and should be
changed by the physical characteristics I think
highway=crossing
crossing=cycleway
would be a good formula.
What do you think?
yopaseopor
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging