Re: [Tagging] generalized survey and consequences

[André Pirard]

On 2014-06-09 12:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote :
>
> 2014-06-09 8:31 GMT+02:00 André Pirard  >:
>
> And that maxspeed thing is the strangest one ever.
> source=* almost says that source:maxspeed
> =* is an
> admitted mistake but that you are not compelled to make the
> mistake and  that you are allowed to correctly use maxspeed:type
> =*.
>
>
>
> Actually the "source:maxspeed" tag was discussed years ago (2009 IIRR)
> on this list and by the time approved. The idea to use maxspeed:type
> instead is very new compared to this, and there wasn't any actual
> proposal to see whether this was backed by the community, rather then
> what appears to be a national initiative of some folk in the british
> comunity in order to make up something different to how it is done
> elsewhere:
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/maxspeed%3Atype#map
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source:maxspeed#map

Thanks for this piece of history and survey, Martin.
But my point is not liking but just being logical.
I find it very strange to say: use source:maxspeed
=* for type, but
if you need to use source as source, use maxspeed:type
=*.  Especially if
you deal with someone else's tags and you must transfer their
source:maxspeed
=* to
maxspeed:type =*.
before adding your own source:maxspeed
=* !!!
And, further more, that this explanation is mentioned only for source=*
and not for maxspeed=*, and that national instructions and presets
reflect only the latter, totally missing the point and aggravating the
situation.
Is it too simple to simply use maxspeed:type
=*?
Yes, I know, I'm not fuzzy enough ;-)
> If there was a proposal and a discussion whether to use maxspeed:type
> rather then wiki fiddling, I guess we could still change the key name
> / tagging scheme, given that there would sufficient support by the
> comunity which also implies that there would be some net benefit from
> changing.
>
> On the (connected) question of tagging sources on single objects or to
> a changeset we appearantly can't find consensus, at least it wasn't
> possible in the past years. A lot of mappers are insisting on this way
> of tagging even if the associated problems cannot be solved (mainly
> how to deal with these tags when you perform modifications on an object).
I have just mapped a bus line. While doing it, I made dozens of
corrections because, pardon me, OSM needs them badly (access=yes,
bicycle=yes, foot=yes, motor-vehicle=yes, repeated JOSM congratulations
etc.).
Who does seriously think that a mapper will purge his bus changes in
order to make other changes without mixing sources? I even had
compelling reasons to make a global update (saving to OSM local file).
The changeset source idea comes from bulk importers for which it's
all-right.
>
> And as we are #2 when generalizing source:maxspeed
> =survey we
> are making using maxspeed:type
> =* mandatory.
>
>
> we won't probably make anything "mandatory".
Best is to use OSM consequently, each our own way, as our reputation.

André.



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] generalized survey and consequences

[André Pirard]

On 2014-06-09 19:25, SomeoneElse wrote :
> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Actually the "source:maxspeed" tag was discussed years ago (2009
>> IIRR) on this list and by the time approved. The idea to use
>> maxspeed:type instead is very new compared to this, and there wasn't
>> any actual proposal to see whether this was backed by the community,
>> rather then what appears to be a national initiative of some folk in
>> the british comunity in order to make up something different to how
>> it is done elsewhere:
>> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/maxspeed%3Atype#map
>> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source:maxspeed#map
>
> ... another interpretation as to what actually happened is that
> "source:blah" was in widespread use since the beginning of time for
> "the source of the blah key" (survey, local_knowledge, whatever). Then
> at some point people decided to use "source:maxspeed" to refer to the
> zone (e.g. if a road's in an urban area, and urban areas in your
> country have a 30 km/h speed limit regardless of signage, then it's OK
> to say that the "source of the maxspeed" is something like
> "DE:zone:30" or similar).
>
> In the UK "maxspeed:type" is usually used with "national" speed
> limits, not zone-based ones.  The source of the maxspeed is therefore
> "survey", "local_knowledge" or similar, and "maxspeed:type" is used to
> indicate that it is a "national" maximum speed limit, not a numeric
> one.  It's important to record what the sign actually says, not just
> the number that that sign happens to currently represent -
> historically the national speed limit for different classes of road
> for cars has changed, and it may again in the future.
>
> There was (a couple of years ago) a significant usage of
> "maxspeed=national" or similar in the UK.  this caused a certain
> amount of "toys being thrown out of prams" from people (mostly from
> countries where the posted limit is always numeric) who expected the
> "maxspeed" value to always be a number.  The compromise was to store
> store the actual posted sign value in maxspeed:type, and what number
> that happens to currently correspond to in "maxspeed" (and the actual
> source, if it needs to be stored, in maxspeed:source for compatibility
> with other source keys).
A mixed bag in short.
And when one looks at the actual contents of source=*, that's what it is
indeed.
Sources of all kinds separated with the strictly forbidden semicolon,
survey without date, ...
So, why not use type and source in the same tag?
The strangest is the directive to use type=* if and only if source=*
contains source.
But, after all, the chap uses the bike when the wife uses the car,
doesn't he?
Speaking of humor, I liked the icon displayed by taginfo for
source:maxspeed:
End-of-speed-limit ... be optimistic!!! :-)

Cheers,

André.







___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] generalized survey and consequences

[SomeoneElse]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Actually the "source:maxspeed" tag was discussed years ago (2009 IIRR) 
on this list and by the time approved. The idea to use maxspeed:type 
instead is very new compared to this, and there wasn't any actual 
proposal to see whether this was backed by the community, rather then 
what appears to be a national initiative of some folk in the british 
comunity in order to make up something different to how it is done 
elsewhere:

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/maxspeed%3Atype#map
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source:maxspeed#map


... another interpretation as to what actually happened is that 
"source:blah" was in widespread use since the beginning of time for "the 
source of the blah key" (survey, local_knowledge, whatever). Then at 
some point people decided to use "source:maxspeed" to refer to the zone 
(e.g. if a road's in an urban area, and urban areas in your country have 
a 30 km/h speed limit regardless of signage, then it's OK to say that 
the "source of the maxspeed" is something like "DE:zone:30" or similar).


In the UK "maxspeed:type" is usually used with "national" speed limits, 
not zone-based ones.  The source of the maxspeed is therefore "survey", 
"local_knowledge" or similar, and "maxspeed:type" is used to indicate 
that it is a "national" maximum speed limit, not a numeric one.  It's 
important to record what the sign actually says, not just the number 
that that sign happens to currently represent - historically the 
national speed limit for different classes of road for cars has changed, 
and it may again in the future.


There was (a couple of years ago) a significant usage of 
"maxspeed=national" or similar in the UK.  this caused a certain amount 
of "toys being thrown out of prams" from people (mostly from countries 
where the posted limit is always numeric) who expected the "maxspeed" 
value to always be a number.  The compromise was to store store the 
actual posted sign value in maxspeed:type, and what number that happens 
to currently correspond to in "maxspeed" (and the actual source, if it 
needs to be stored, in maxspeed:source for compatibility with other 
source keys).


Cheers,

Andy



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] generalized survey and consequences

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-06-09 8:31 GMT+02:00 André Pirard :

> And that maxspeed thing is the strangest one ever.
> source=* almost says that source:maxspeed
> =* is an admitted
> mistake but that you are not compelled to make the mistake and  that you
> are allowed to correctly use maxspeed:type
> =*.
>


Actually the "source:maxspeed" tag was discussed years ago (2009 IIRR) on
this list and by the time approved. The idea to use maxspeed:type instead
is very new compared to this, and there wasn't any actual proposal to see
whether this was backed by the community, rather then what appears to be a
national initiative of some folk in the british comunity in order to make
up something different to how it is done elsewhere:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/maxspeed%3Atype#map
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source:maxspeed#map

If there was a proposal and a discussion whether to use maxspeed:type
rather then wiki fiddling, I guess we could still change the key name /
tagging scheme, given that there would sufficient support by the comunity
which also implies that there would be some net benefit from changing.

On the (connected) question of tagging sources on single objects or to a
changeset we appearantly can't find consensus, at least it wasn't possible
in the past years. A lot of mappers are insisting on this way of tagging
even if the associated problems cannot be solved (mainly how to deal with
these tags when you perform modifications on an object).



And as we are #2 when generalizing source:maxspeed
> =survey we are
> making using maxspeed:type
> =* mandatory.
>


we won't probably make anything "mandatory".


cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] generalized survey and consequences

[David]

Andre, good post. I like the idea that entries be dated. Like you, i see 
problems with using the word "survey". In this context, could mean two things. 
Maybe the simplest would be date=   ???

Or current=   ???

Like you, i'd strongly recommend ISO date format.

David
.

André Pirard  wrote:

>___
>Tagging mailing list
>Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] generalized survey and consequences

[André Pirard]

  
  
Hi,

Some data of the map changes often, in particular what's on the
road: traffic signs, bus lines etc.
It would be interesting if someone tackling a region could determine
what in his interests was checked the longest ago.  Hence the need
for a date at the beginning of the data that is not of the source of
information if any but that indicates when that source, visual
observation or other was still current last. The someone would deal
with the oldest in priority and update that date if that can be
said. The data field of the query result would be sorted to
determine the oldest ones.
Is the source:survey date appropriate for that, pardon my limited
English ...

   verb (used
  with object) 
   1.
 to take a general or comprehensive view
  of or appraise, as a situation, area of study, etc. 
  
   2.
 to view in detail, especially to inspect,
  examine, or appraise formally or officially in order to
  ascertain condition, value, etc. 
  
   3.
 to conduct a survey of or among:
  to survey TV viewers.

  
   4.
 to determine the exact form, boundaries,
  position, extent, etc., of (a tract of land, section of a
  country, etc.) by linear and angular measurements and the
  application of the principles of geometry and trigonometry. 
  
  
 noun,
  plural surveys. 
 6.
   an act or instance of surveying
or of taking a comprehensive view of something:
The course is a survey of
Italian painting.
  

 7.
   a formal or official examination of
the particulars of something, made in order to ascertain
condition, character, etc. 

 8.
   a statement or description
embodying the result of this:
They presented their survey to
the board of directors.
  

 9.
   a sampling, or partial collection,
of facts, figures, or opinions taken and used to
approximate or indicate what a complete collection and
analysis might reveal:
The survey showed the
percentage of the population that planned to vote.
  

 10.
   the act of determining the exact
form, boundaries, position, etc., as of a tract of land
or section of a country, by linear measurements, angular
measurements, etc. 

 11.
   the plan or description resulting
from such an operation. 

 12.
   an agency for making
determinations:
U.S. Geological Survey.
  

  
  

  

Not the seemingly appropriate #4, but #7 looks like the right word,
isn't it.
Anyway, I let you natives decide.
Or we just use no word and just put the date first on the
source:data line.

But now comes my computer science remark that "10
  November 2012" is not appropriate because it does nor easily
sort chronologically.  And hence I suggest to update the wiki to use
the ISO format 2012-11-10 instead.

Would someone versed in overpass queries confirm that such a query
can be done sorted, or with a possible use of a post-processing
script to format and sort the output?

But now comes that clash again.  This generalized good practice is
difficultly applicable to maxspeed.

And that maxspeed thing is the strangest one ever.
source=* almost says that source:maxspeed=* is an
admitted mistake but that you are not compelled to make the mistake
and  that you are allowed to correctly use maxspeed:type=*. 
Furthermore, if #1 uses a wrong source:maxspeed=* and then
#2 comes to add a correct source:maxspeed=*, then #2
has to change #1's source:maxspeed=* to maxspeed:type=*. before he
add his correct source:maxspeed=*.
And as we are #2 when generalizing source:maxspeed=survey we
are making using maxspeed:type=* mandatory.
Furthermore the correct key:maxspeed:type article
almost deters from using it and key:maxspeed shows a sole source:maxspeed=* as useful
combination.
And, of course, national wikis will overlook maxspeed:type entirely.

Couldn't that maxspeed problem be fixed logically?

Cheers,


  

  André.

  








  


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists