Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Feb 17, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> Why would the single track nature be a problem for motorcycles?

Probably regional bias. While I know motorcycles can handle the terrain, when I 
think of "trail" or "hiking" - usually every single trail I hiked on had motor 
vehicles, including dirt bikes, prohibited - I never encountered one in the 
couple thousand miles I hiked and biked on single-track. actual 
"highway=track", yes, I've seen a few. 

The rule was probably there to keep my dad, who was a avid dirt bike adventurer 
in the 60's, from tearing up the terrain and then hunting every animal that 
moved in every square mile of San Diego as a teenager

I always think of off-road motorcycles racing through the rough desert. 

Similarly, here in Japan, I have yet to see an off-road motorcycle that 
actually is "off-road". I Have seen some rock crawlers (that had been on their 
sides a lot), but it's very rare to see a dirt bike. 

In an area dominated by single track for motorcycles (like those outdoor parks 
for off-road vehicles, ones I have never been to), perhaps a subkey of path to 
define it as a motorcycle path might be useful. 
Mixing Dirt bikes and hikers sounds like a dangerous thing! 

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4143421,139.249253,3a,66.8y,346.68h,79.2t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s21Q9FFSuEYVGJGGbvjmlEw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x601ee4da223e8931:0xaff30acb8d1210b

There is a nice well maintained trail hidden in the bamboo that goes straight 
up this hill (the asphalt road turns right) - you can get a dirt bike up it 
only if it is dry - otherwise the clay is so slippery! It is like a toboggan 
Shute straight down with no steps. I flew down it on a mountain bike - the 
asphalt is the only place the tires could grip anything to stop - they left 
huge crescent marks anywhere I tapped the brakes to try to slow down. I shot 
out of the bamboo at full speed.  

 I don't know how the old people walk their dogs up it every day.

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-15 22:13 GMT+01:00 John Willis :

> I always think of ranchers on quads.
>
> Anyways, Trail is the single track version of track. Because of its single
> track nature, I would say it defaults to motorcycle=no
>


maybe you should think less about quads ;-)
Why would the single track nature be a problem for motorcycles? Overtaking?
two-way-traffic? Both will not be important in remote areas typically.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-15 21:34 GMT+01:00 Richard :

> > or they're using motocross motorcycles...
> > A path doesn't prohibit motor vehicle use by default, a footway does.
> Many shepherds in remote areas are using motorcycles.
>
> highway=path does prohibit motor vehicels by default according to wiki.



yes, you're right. Still, it seems more consistent to allow motorcycles on
a path (by explicit tagging) than it would be to allow them on a footway.
Non-motorized vehicles are allowed per default on a path, while they are on
some footways and on others not (country specific).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

> On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> or they're using motocross motorcycles...
> A path doesn't prohibit motor vehicle use by default, a footway does. Many 
> shepherds in remote areas are using motorcycles

I always think of ranchers on quads. 

Anyways, Trail is the single track version of track. Because of its single 
track nature, I would say it defaults to motorcycle=no (like path or footway, 
especially if a subkey value is used), but should be easy to change access. 

Wouldn't the rancher's trails be on private grazing land, or is this a public 
open-space thing?  
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

I Hit send by accident. 

Javbw

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 10:01 PM, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> 
> None of those tags convey the difference implied primary/tertiary/...track. 
> 
> The track grade scale and the sac scale both 

...convey the degree or grade of the way, 

However track has its own key value outside of service or residential, and 
trail/hiking does not, as all "generic non-car ways" are lumped into path. 

Just like tracks are easily distinguishable from driveways - sidewalks and 
trails through the mountains are as well, and some method should exist to show 
their trail/hiking/something nature. 

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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Feb 14, 2016, at 4:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> surface and width tags, as well as sac_scale

None of those tags convey the difference implied primary/tertiary/...track. 

The track grade scale and the sac scale both


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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 4:55 PM, Andrew Errington  wrote:
> 
> It's a path

All non-motorways are roads for cars.

Just add the width and surface and let's depreciate all the other values. 
primary/secondary/tertiary/unclassified/residential/service/track and have only 
highway=road. 

All that they are used for are implied  and can be magically determined in 
those generic tags. No keys or sublets needed.  We can color all the roads 
white and let everyone figure it out for themselves weather it is appropriate 
for their vehicle, their route, and if they need to bring a chainsaw to cut 
fallen logs across their path. None of that needs to be represented in a main 
tag nor sub-tag. 

However the subtle difference between a footway and a sidewalk? Totally 
reasonable to have a subkey to define it. 

>< 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 5:03 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> footway=hiking

Footway=trail, as it can be used for many activites, including hiking. 

I would love to have a separate main key value for a trail, just like track. 

We differentiate between a gravel driveway and a gravel track. 

If I go to a zoo or a park, they often times have well graded compact gravel / 
DG/ dirt footways. If I had my friend in a wheelchair or my mother with bad 
toes from chemotherapy, they can easily shuffle or roll along the route because 
it is at heart a footway with surface=gravel. 

If I have a loose gravel kind of path along a riverbank, with some rocks and 
erosion, I can easily hike (in sneakers!), mountain bike, or visit a ranger's 
cabin in a remote area. I'm not going to assume I can push a stroller along, 
take a 10 year old on their bike, nor bring along a kid in a wagon. 

These are all assumptions people make when seeing sidewalks and "Paths" in a 
park or city on a map. A  trail - a way with inherent difficulty to travel 
because of condition, slope, and maintenance is different from those footpaths. 
The sac scale lets me set the degree of difficulty of the trail - but it does 
not let me actually differentiate between a sidewalk and a trail at a high 
level. 

Just like we treat highway=residential / service / track differently and THEN 
we apply a track grade. 

If I had a key or subkey value, it would be footway=trail or path=trail (as 
many many activities are allowed or prohibited on a trail), but path=hiking 
exists and is somewhat "inuse". 

Something - anything - to separate a trail from a path that is related in some 
way to its highway=* value would be awesome. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Andrew Errington]

I disagree.  If we use something specific like footway=hiking then that
implies the path is only for hiking.

It's a path.  Its purpose is for whatever you want to do.  highway=path
perfectly encapsulates the idea "there is a path here".

'hiking' could be used as a tag on a route, which is a set of pieces of
path or road (or steps) which form a hiking trail.

Here in Korea, a lot of the paths are also access for fire wardens and
forestry workers, and on the lower slopes they are used to reach grave
sites for ceremonies and maintenance.

They /can/ be used for hiking, but that is not an exclusive use.

Andrew
On 14 Feb 2016 17:29, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 14/02/2016 6:38 PM, John Willis wrote:
>
>>
>> Javbw
>>
>> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Andrew Errington 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right
>>> approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a
>>> different renderer.
>>>
>> Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path
>> through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a
>> trail up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless
>> highway=path tag - there is no differentiation possible, so there is no
>> rendering differentiation possible. In any renderer.
>>
>
> OSMAnd is capable of rendering the surface tag! So set your 'hiking path'
> to unpaved (or dirt/sand etc) ... and it can be rendered.
>
> highway=path has always been someone's bandaid.
> I would rebel against path and use footway=hiking!  I would be for the
> removal of highway=path.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Warin]

Sorry ... longer version

highway=footway
footway=hiking

On 14/02/2016 7:47 PM, Andrew Errington wrote:


I disagree.  If we use something specific like footway=hiking then 
that implies the path is only for hiking.


It's a path.  Its purpose is for whatever you want to do.  
highway=path perfectly encapsulates the idea "there is a path here".




 highway=footway also encapsulates the idea "there is a path here".


'hiking' could be used as a tag on a route, which is a set of pieces 
of path or road (or steps) which form a hiking trail.




'hiking' can be used to indicate the main use of the way.

Here in Korea, a lot of the paths are also access for fire wardens and 
forestry workers, and on the lower slopes they are used to reach grave 
sites for ceremonies and maintenance.


Just as a 'oneway' can be used in the wrong direction by emergency 
services. Some things are not tagged, they are what a reasonable person 
would expect to be 'default' values.


They /can/ be used for hiking, but that is not an exclusive use.

The forestry workers, fire wardens, etc would be 'hiking' ... unless it 
is wide enough for a vehicle .. in which case highway=track would be a 
better tag.


A leisure=swimming_pool does not say that the swimming pool is exclusive 
for swimming... nor exclusive for leisure.

ASSUME ... definition = making and ass out of you and me?


Andrew

On 14 Feb 2016 17:29, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 14/02/2016 6:38 PM, John Willis wrote:


Javbw

On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Andrew Errington
> wrote:

Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is
not the right approach.  It would be better to lobby for a
change of rendering, or use a different renderer.

Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn
dirt path through the grass around a park, a rough trail
through the desert, and a trail up the side of Mt Fuji all
have the same vague, meaningless highway=path tag - there is
no differentiation possible, so there is no rendering
differentiation possible. In any renderer.


OSMAnd is capable of rendering the surface tag! So set your
'hiking path' to unpaved (or dirt/sand etc) ... and it can be
rendered.

highway=path has always been someone's bandaid.
I would rebel against path and use footway=hiking!  I would be for
the removal of highway=path.


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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Warin]

On 14/02/2016 6:38 PM, John Willis wrote:


Javbw


On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Andrew Errington  wrote:

Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right 
approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a 
different renderer.

Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path 
through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a trail 
up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless highway=path tag - 
there is no differentiation possible, so there is no rendering differentiation 
possible. In any renderer.


OSMAnd is capable of rendering the surface tag! So set your 'hiking path' to 
unpaved (or dirt/sand etc) ... and it can be rendered.

highway=path has always been someone's bandaid.
I would rebel against path and use footway=hiking!  I would be for the removal 
of highway=path.


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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Andrew Errington  wrote:
> 
> Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right 
> approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a 
> different renderer.

Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path 
through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a trail 
up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless highway=path tag - 
there is no differentiation possible, so there is no rendering differentiation 
possible. In any renderer. 

The only way to separate sidewalks from hiking trails is to a) abolish or 
severely restrict the usage of the path tag, which people don't want to do, b) 
create Highway=trail key which people don't want to do, so I'd like to not have 
a grossly inferior (and I mean borderline useless) walking map, so what is left 
is to use c) a sub key to get the trails differentiated, so a rough hiking path 
up a mountain or along a riverbed isn't confused with the sidewalks and 
pedestrian walkways that are often nearby or intermingled where urban meets 
rural. I happened upon path=hiking - someone made it already. 

Not being able to define a rough trail and have it rendered different that the 
other, more urban footways is the same as if all unclassified, residential, 
service, and track were all rendered the same. 

Not only do we have all those grades of small roads, we have 5 (!five!) grades 
of track. They (used to?) all get their own rendering too. 

Can there be at least 1 trail-ish thing that isn't rendered exactly the same as 
a 1m wide flat concrete path through a park?  We can at least document this as 
"in use" to try to mitigate the conflict caused by path and footway used to do 
the same job in different regions? 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 14.02.2016 um 08:38 schrieb John Willis :
> 
> Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path 
> through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a 
> trail up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless 
> highway=path tag - there is no differentiation possible, so there is no 
> rendering differentiation possible. In any renderer.


you can add surface and width tags, as well as sac_scale and others. FWIW, 
current rendering rules of carto-osm don't even distinguish between footway and 
path anymore.

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Andrew Errington]

Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right
approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a
different renderer.

I use highway=path for my hiking trails, then I make relations to record
the popular, named hiking trails.  Some parts of the trail are
highway=steps, because metal staircases have been installed in some places.

Andrew
On 14 Feb 2016 13:03, "johnw"  wrote:

> I came across path=hiking subkey just now.
>
> I was cleaning up some old tagging, and lamenting the highway=path
> rendering change (now my rural mountain trails are all rendered as
> sidewalks),
> and I was considering changing them all to highway=trail, and then thought
> about a subkey of path, path=trail. But path=* in iD suggested path=hiking.
> I had never seen this before. Taginfo has 2100+ uses of this subkey, though
> it looks like they are all centered somewhere in Europe, with a few random
> ones aound everywhere.
>
>
> If we can get this subkey  documented and approved, and change then ask
> for a rendering change in -carto to something not as infuriating as
> rendering mountain trails like sidewalks, I might be able to live with the
> highway=path tag.
>
>
> Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Andrew Errington]

It's a path.  The fact that the line is drawn the same for each type of
path you describe doesn't matter.  The line indicates "a path of some kind
is here".  It should be obvious from the terrain what kind of path should
be expected.

You could add sac_scale, to indicate that this is *not* a simple path:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sac_scale

Or create a route which incorporates the segments of path you have created:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking

Andrew
On 14 Feb 2016 16:40, "John Willis"  wrote:

>
>
> Javbw
>
> > On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Andrew Errington 
> wrote:
> >
> > Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right
> approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a
> different renderer.
>
> Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path
> through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a
> trail up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless
> highway=path tag - there is no differentiation possible, so there is no
> rendering differentiation possible. In any renderer.
>
> The only way to separate sidewalks from hiking trails is to a) abolish or
> severely restrict the usage of the path tag, which people don't want to do,
> b) create Highway=trail key which people don't want to do, so I'd like to
> not have a grossly inferior (and I mean borderline useless) walking map, so
> what is left is to use c) a sub key to get the trails differentiated, so a
> rough hiking path up a mountain or along a riverbed isn't confused with the
> sidewalks and pedestrian walkways that are often nearby or intermingled
> where urban meets rural. I happened upon path=hiking - someone made it
> already.
>
> Not being able to define a rough trail and have it rendered different that
> the other, more urban footways is the same as if all unclassified,
> residential, service, and track were all rendered the same.
>
> Not only do we have all those grades of small roads, we have 5 (!five!)
> grades of track. They (used to?) all get their own rendering too.
>
> Can there be at least 1 trail-ish thing that isn't rendered exactly the
> same as a 1m wide flat concrete path through a park?  We can at least
> document this as "in use" to try to mitigate the conflict caused by path
> and footway used to do the same job in different regions?
>
> Javbw.
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