Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
Am Do., 19. Sept. 2019 um 09:20 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org>: > Let me summarize > > Why `phone`: > - It's more used > - It's shorter > - Better to find in wiki > > Why `contact:phone`: > - It's more structured because it's a subkey of `contact` > - It's better to find in wiki (for people who think in a "more structured" > way) > - It's the approved one I would question that it is easier to find "contact:phone" compared to "phone" in the wiki, regardless of the structured way you think in. Try it: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?search=phone+number&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go contact:phone doesn't even have a wiki page, only a redirect. The first thing you read on the "contact:*" collector page is a reference to the more used "phone" key. I would also question there is a point in the "approval" by voting, as approval by usage (and growth) is more important than voting. This leaves only the "more structured" as an argument, which can be seen as a pro, but also not. And while this "structured" approach may work nicely for phone numbers, it is questionable for keys like "website", because a website is a website, and may be an interesting datum, even if there is no contact possibility whatsoever on the website. "phone" is not only more used, its usage is also growing faster. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
Let me summarizeWhy `phone`:- It's more used- It's shorter- Better to find in wikiWhy `contact:phone`:- It's more structured because it's a subkey of `contact`- It's better to find in wiki (for people who think in a "more structured" way)- It's the approved oneBoth let us add more subkeys like `emergency`CheerioSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Colin Smale To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: On 2019-08-26 15:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phoneOn 25. Aug 2019, at 18:06, Andy Mabbettwrote: there are at least two possibilities:phone= phone:emergency= phone:staff= and:phone= emergency:phone= staff:phone= Neither of which requires "contact:" exactly, I was about to reply the same, it is not an issue for more specific tags that there is also a generic tag. So will we now have the OSM-style discussion about which phone number to put in the generic tag? All numbers are equal, but one is slightly more equal than the rest... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
On 2019-08-26 15:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > sent from a phone > > On 25. Aug 2019, at 18:06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > there are at least two possibilities: > phone= > phone:emergency= > phone:staff= > > and: > phone= > emergency:phone= > staff:phone= > > Neither of which requires "contact:" > > exactly, I was about to reply the same, it is not an issue for more specific > tags that there is also a generic tag. So will we now have the OSM-style discussion about which phone number to put in the generic tag? All numbers are equal, but one is slightly more equal than the rest...___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
sent from a phone > On 25. Aug 2019, at 18:06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > there are at least two possibilities: > > > phone= > phone:emergency= > phone:staff= > > and: > > phone= > emergency:phone= > staff:phone= > > Neither of which requires "contact:" exactly, I was about to reply the same, it is not an issue for more specific tags that there is also a generic tag. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
On 26/08/19 00:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 'phone=*'. This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'. seems fair that “key:phone” shows up first for a search for “phone”, it’s straightforward, and it’s also the most used tag for phone (numbers). There is no list, no first, second etc. The only thing that shows is the page for the key phone. No list of key phone and key contact:phone .. just the key phone page - no search page at all. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 05:58, marc marc wrote: > > phone=number1;number2 > ex https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26861282 But that wouldn't allow you to specify what the different numbers are for, would it? eg phone=general_enquiries:number1;service:number2 Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
Le 25.08.19 à 17:42, Colin Smale a écrit : > Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single > phone number. not true. phone=number1;number2 ex https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26861282 18219 discint value for a total of 19694 count > one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for staff,... you may use a namespace prefix (but some app 'll not use it) or create one objet per unit (maybe a reception_desk for the general enquiries, or one for the Hyundai franchise departement) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
Unless you can justify a difference based on the nature of the information recorded instead of tag counts, deprecating contact:phone makes tagging less orthogonal, which is a nuisance for both mappers and map consumers. -- Andrew From: Valor Naram Sent: 25 August 2019 17:40 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:contact don't provide any tagging method to tag numbers for emergency, general enquiries etc. Both keys just allow the tagging of one phone number on one object. But feel free to write a proposal to extend the tagging scheme of `phone` to: - `phone` - `phone:emergency` - `phone:night` - `phone:press` Feel free also to extend the `email` tag: - `email` - `email:press` - `email:legal` But we're drifting away from the topic "Multiple tags for one purpose". We should discuss the problem of "fragmentation" in general. But deprecating `contact:phone` in favor of `phone` can be the logical step. Cheers Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message ---- Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose From: Colin Smale To: tagging@openstreetmap.org CC: Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single phone number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a single object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for staff,... Note I am not talking about tagging here, but trying to discuss the underlying data model. On 2019-08-25 17:11, Valor Naram wrote: > What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't > seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation. Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone` Original Message Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose From: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone > On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin wrote: > > Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key > 'phone=*'. > This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'. seems fair that "key:phone" shows up first for a search for "phone", it's straightforward, and it's also the most used tag for phone (numbers). The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn't use presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don't have to care for tag names anyway. If you search for "contact phone" the first hit is key:contact, one could argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number. What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:contact don't provide any tagging method to tag numbers for emergency, general enquiries etc. Both keys just allow the tagging of one phone number on one object.But feel free to write a proposal to extend the tagging scheme of `phone` to:- `phone`- `phone:emergency`- `phone:night`- `phone:press`Feel free also to extend the `email` tag:- `email`- `email:press`- `email:legal`But we're drifting away from the topic "Multiple tags for one purpose". We should discuss the problem of "fragmentation" in general. But deprecating `contact:phone` in favor of `phone` can be the logical step.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Colin Smale To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single phone number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a single object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for staff,... Note I am not talking about tagging here, but trying to discuss the underlying data model. On 2019-08-25 17:11, Valor Naram wrote: > What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone` Original Message Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin wrote:> > Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 'phone=*'.> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.seems fair that "key:phone" shows up first for a search for "phone", it's straightforward, and it's also the most used tag for phone (numbers).The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn't use presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don't have to care for tag names anyway.If you search for "contact phone" the first hit is key:contact, one could argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number.What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Cheers Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 16:42, Colin Smale wrote: > > Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single phone > number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a single > object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for > staff,... there are at least two possibilities: phone= phone:emergency= phone:staff= and: phone= emergency:phone= staff:phone= Neither of which requires "contact:" -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 16:46, Colin Smale wrote: > Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single > phone number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a > single object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, > one for staff,... > I've seen this on car dealerships. One number for the Hyundai franchise, another for the VW franchise, another for repairs and a repeat of one of the franchise numbers for general enquiries. Some larger businesses have several numbers for different purposes rather than having everything go through a single number. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single phone number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a single object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for staff,... Note I am not talking about tagging here, but trying to discuss the underlying data model. On 2019-08-25 17:11, Valor Naram wrote: >> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't >> seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation. > > Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone` > > Original Message ---- > Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one > purpose > From: Martin Koppenhoefer > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > CC: > >> sent from a phone >> >>> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin wrote: >>> >>> Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key >>> 'phone=*'. >>> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'. >> >> seems fair that "key:phone" shows up first for a search for "phone", it's >> straightforward, and it's also the most used tag for phone (numbers). >> >> The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn't use >> presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would >> require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don't have to >> care for tag names anyway. >> >> If you search for "contact phone" the first hit is key:contact, one could >> argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term >> as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number. >> >> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't >> seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation. >> >> Cheers Martin >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn’t seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone` Original Message Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:> > Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 'phone=*'.> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.seems fair that “key:phone” shows up first for a search for “phone”, it’s straightforward, and it’s also the most used tag for phone (numbers).The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn’t use presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don’t have to care for tag names anyway.If you search for “contact phone” the first hit is key:contact, one could argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number.What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn’t seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Cheers Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
sent from a phone > On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key > 'phone=*'. > This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'. seems fair that “key:phone” shows up first for a search for “phone”, it’s straightforward, and it’s also the most used tag for phone (numbers). The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn’t use presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don’t have to care for tag names anyway. If you search for “contact phone” the first hit is key:contact, one could argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number. What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn’t seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging