Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Mark Wagner]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 15:55:58 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2016-07-23 15:21 GMT+02:00 ael :
> 
> > OTOH, some of the deep historic cuttings illustrated earlier don't
> > seem to me to fit the description hollow_way, which was perhaps the
> > point.
> >  
> 
> 
> yes, there are different kind of historic road tags around, e.g.
> historic=
> 
> roman_road 2540
> hollow_way 1462
> road 330
> ancient_road 86
> way 69
> Altstraße 67
> highway 52
> 
> this suggests people like being specific.
> 
> +1 to historic=hollow_way for actual hollow ways. -1 to cutting for
> hollow ways.

"highway=path" (or whatever) + "cutting=yes" + "historic=hollow_way"
seems like it would satisfy both likely sets of data consumers: those
who need to know what sort of terrain they're dealing with but don't
care how it got that way, and those who want to map the history of the
area.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-23 15:21 GMT+02:00 ael :

> OTOH, some of the deep historic cuttings illustrated earlier don't
> seem to me to fit the description hollow_way, which was perhaps the
> point.
>


yes, there are different kind of historic road tags around, e.g.
historic=

roman_road 2540
hollow_way 1462
road 330
ancient_road 86
way 69
Altstraße 67
highway 52

this suggests people like being specific.

+1 to historic=hollow_way for actual hollow ways. -1 to cutting for hollow
ways.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[ael]

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 12:45:31PM +, Alejandro S. wrote:
> Hi,
> IMHO they are the same feature but made by different methods (handmade or
> erosion), maybe we can use cutting=handmade and cutting=hollow_way
> respectively? And let cutting=yes as the general tag.

Well, yes when that is known. Clearly some cases, including examples in
this thread, are obvious. But in most cases the ordinary mapper won't
have a clue. So maybe we need some sort of subtag scheme which 
gives extra information in the rare cases where this is available.

So duck-tagging for the main tag historic = hollow_way, and perhaps
hollow_way=cutting | whatever where there is more information?

OTOH, some of the deep historic cuttings illustrated earlier don't
seem to me to fit the description hollow_way, which was perhaps the
point.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Alejandro S.]

Hi,
IMHO they are the same feature but made by different methods (handmade or
erosion), maybe we can use cutting=handmade and cutting=hollow_way
respectively? And let cutting=yes as the general tag.

Regards,
Alejandro

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016, 03:50 Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> The mountains around here have seen several waves of unsuccessful
> settlement. The soil is just too poor to sustain a substantial human
> presence. The scars of old abandoned roads have continued to erode.
> I'd use the proposed feature for abandoned tracks like
> https://flic.kr/p/oNCZVD where the roadway is worn to bedrock and the
> banks on either side are 5m tall or more. I think that fits "hollow
> way" - it doesn't fit "cutting" since the lowering of the roadway was
> the action of wind, rain and ice.
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> >> Il giorno 22 lug 2016, alle ore 22:34, ael 
> ha scritto:
> >>
> >> Actually, having done a bit more research, I am not sure that anyone
> >> knows whether they were originally "cuttings" designed to offer shelter
> >> from prevailing wind and rain. Or whether they are indeed the result of
> >> erosion by use and weather over the millenia.
> >
> >
> > around here are very old cuttings in the rock dating to pre-roman times
> >
> > http://tuqui.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/image-12.jpeg
> >
> http://www.maneggiobelvedere.it/Vie%20cave%20etrusche%20e%20paesi/Via%20Cava%20di%20San%20Giuseppe%20a%20Pitigliano.jpg
> >
> > These are particularly impressive, but shorter ones can be found a lot.
> I've I have mapped a few and used historic=cutting with
> historic:civilization. Here is a short one:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/130536519#map=19/42.01982/12.39154=D
> >
> > IMHO there should be a difference for hollow ways and cuttings in rock.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Martin
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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Kevin Kenny]

The mountains around here have seen several waves of unsuccessful
settlement. The soil is just too poor to sustain a substantial human
presence. The scars of old abandoned roads have continued to erode.
I'd use the proposed feature for abandoned tracks like
https://flic.kr/p/oNCZVD where the roadway is worn to bedrock and the
banks on either side are 5m tall or more. I think that fits "hollow
way" - it doesn't fit "cutting" since the lowering of the roadway was
the action of wind, rain and ice.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 22 lug 2016, alle ore 22:34, ael  ha 
>> scritto:
>>
>> Actually, having done a bit more research, I am not sure that anyone
>> knows whether they were originally "cuttings" designed to offer shelter
>> from prevailing wind and rain. Or whether they are indeed the result of
>> erosion by use and weather over the millenia.
>
>
> around here are very old cuttings in the rock dating to pre-roman times
>
> http://tuqui.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/image-12.jpeg
> http://www.maneggiobelvedere.it/Vie%20cave%20etrusche%20e%20paesi/Via%20Cava%20di%20San%20Giuseppe%20a%20Pitigliano.jpg
>
> These are particularly impressive, but shorter ones can be found a lot. I've 
> I have mapped a few and used historic=cutting with historic:civilization. 
> Here is a short one: 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/130536519#map=19/42.01982/12.39154=D
>
> IMHO there should be a difference for hollow ways and cuttings in rock.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 22 lug 2016, alle ore 22:34, ael  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Actually, having done a bit more research, I am not sure that anyone
> knows whether they were originally "cuttings" designed to offer shelter
> from prevailing wind and rain. Or whether they are indeed the result of
> erosion by use and weather over the millenia.  


around here are very old cuttings in the rock dating to pre-roman times

http://tuqui.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/image-12.jpeg
http://www.maneggiobelvedere.it/Vie%20cave%20etrusche%20e%20paesi/Via%20Cava%20di%20San%20Giuseppe%20a%20Pitigliano.jpg

These are particularly impressive, but shorter ones can be found a lot. I've I 
have mapped a few and used historic=cutting with historic:civilization. Here is 
a short one: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/130536519#map=19/42.01982/12.39154=D

IMHO there should be a difference for hollow ways and cuttings in rock.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[ael]

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 05:07:36PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > Il giorno 22 lug 2016, alle ore 14:18, ael  ha 
> > scritto:
> > 
> > Well, if you do revive it, it needs to take account of places like
> > Cornwall in the UK where most of the older lanes and paths are
> > "sunken", although I think by design rather than "fallen" over time.
> 
> 
> if they're "sunken" by design (i.e. dug into the ground), they wouldn't have 
> to be taken into account because that's a different kind of feature (cutting 
> =yes)

Actually, having done a bit more research, I am not sure that anyone
knows whether they were originally "cuttings" designed to offer shelter
from prevailing wind and rain. Or whether they are indeed the result of
erosion by use and weather over the millenia.  

ael


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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 22 lug 2016, alle ore 14:18, ael  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Well, if you do revive it, it needs to take account of places like
> Cornwall in the UK where most of the older lanes and paths are
> "sunken", although I think by design rather than "fallen" over time.


if they're "sunken" by design (i.e. dug into the ground), they wouldn't have to 
be taken into account because that's a different kind of feature (cutting =yes)

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[ael]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 07:57:21AM +0200, joost schouppe wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> There is an abandoned proposal about tagging hollow ways [1]. How does one
> go about reviving it?
> 

Well, if you do revive it, it needs to take account of places like
Cornwall in the UK where most of the older lanes and paths are
"sunken", although I think by design rather than "fallen" over time.

I haven't checked tag-info, but I don't remember seeing any with special
tags like this.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[joost schouppe]

I messed up: I thought I checked all the variants mentioned in the article,
but I missed the main proposal somehow. As it's used already a couple of
100 times, I'll just adapt the article as you suggest, to reflect the
in-use character.

2016-07-21 13:00 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Il giorno 21 lug 2016, alle ore 10:31, Tom Pfeifer <
> t.pfei...@computer.org> ha scritto:
> >
> > However, as this is just a value for the historic tag, and it is used
> 580x already, you could
> > check some of these exiting taggings if they follow the same meaning,
> and document the value
> > as being 'in use'.
>
>
> +1, this is one of the many cases, where back in 2012 wiki user Kstaden
> [1] has changed all open proposals (with no activity for some months) to
> abandoned, regardless of the tags being in use or not. I'd switch the
> proposal to draft or proposed again, ideally issuing an rfc to check
> whether there are problems, with the aim to then set it to active.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
> [1] it was hundreds and it was almost the only thing he did in the osm
> wiki:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Kstaden=Kstaden
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 21 lug 2016, alle ore 10:31, Tom Pfeifer  
> ha scritto:
> 
> However, as this is just a value for the historic tag, and it is used 580x 
> already, you could
> check some of these exiting taggings if they follow the same meaning, and 
> document the value
> as being 'in use'.


+1, this is one of the many cases, where back in 2012 wiki user Kstaden [1] has 
changed all open proposals (with no activity for some months) to abandoned, 
regardless of the tags being in use or not. I'd switch the proposal to draft or 
proposed again, ideally issuing an rfc to check whether there are problems, 
with the aim to then set it to active.


cheers,
Martin 

[1] it was hundreds and it was almost the only thing he did in the osm wiki: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Kstaden=Kstaden



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Re: [Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[Tom Pfeifer]

I'd say it depends on the depth of the decision process so far. If it was a 
failed proposal with
a voting, I'd start from scratch, avoiding the problems of the previous. There 
are a number of
"2.0" approaches.

In the case you cite, the page was last touched by the authors in 2010, and 
there was no decision
process. As the old version is always accessible in the wiki, you could develop 
it further and
provide a link in the introduction to the 2010 version.

However, as this is just a value for the historic tag, and it is used 580x 
already, you could
check some of these exiting taggings if they follow the same meaning, and 
document the value
as being 'in use'.

joost schouppe wrote on 2016/07/21 07:57:

There is an abandoned proposal about tagging hollow ways [1]. How does one go 
about reviving it?

Reviving abandoned proposals in general does not seem to be explained in the 
wiki [2] (but I'm not the best at reading doc). I would want to adapt the 
proposal with the input from the discussion. Is it OK to just adapt the 
existing page, or is there a
point at which it really becomes a new proposal?

I avoided any content about the proposal itself in this message, so as to keep 
the discussion focused. If you can't help yourself, please start a new thread 
about the example itself :)


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hollow_way
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process



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[Tagging] reviving an abandoned proposal

[joost schouppe]

Hi,

There is an abandoned proposal about tagging hollow ways [1]. How does one
go about reviving it?

Reviving abandoned proposals in general does not seem to be explained in
the wiki [2] (but I'm not the best at reading doc). I would want to adapt
the proposal with the input from the discussion. Is it OK to just adapt the
existing page, or is there a point at which it really becomes a new
proposal?

I avoided any content about the proposal itself in this message, so as to
keep the discussion focused. If you can't help yourself, please start a new
thread about the example itself :)


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hollow_way
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process

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