Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Warin]

On 15/8/20 10:54 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
But what do you do for a place, called a Camping Ground, that is a big 
area of grass, mostly without defined "pitches" & where you can camp 
anyway you like: sleep in your car; on the ground; in a tent / camper 
trailer / caravan / motorhome?



Local context. If you camp in some, most?, German camp grounds you are 
give a designated pitch and 'must' only use that pitch. Adels Grove in 
Queensland, Australia also use the same system. But most Australian camp 
ground allow you to pitch anywhere.



For the anywhere and anything camp grounds, tents=yes and caravans=yes 
fit... IIRC there was something for camper trailers? There is nothing 
for car_camp=yes/no as yet.



While tents=yes/no works and is acceptable tent:capacity=* is more 
detailed. For most Australian camp grounds the capacity would be hard to 
determine, so I just use tents=yes/no.




Any period is acceptable, from one night only up to "by discussion 
with management", although permanent residents aren't allowed.


Thanks

Graeme



On 14. Aug 2020, at 22:24, Martin Koppenhoefer
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Both tags allow tents, and both allow camper vans and caravans.



interesting, I would have expected a caravan site to not permit
tents by default.



actually the caravan site puts it a little differently than the
above summary:

“ They may also have some space for tents. If a site is primarily
for tents, it should be tagged as tourism
=camp_site
”




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Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Hidde Wieringa]

Indeed. It is interesting to see that caravan_site is rendered 
conditionally in OpenCampingMap (only when further tags like tents 
tents, caravans, private, groups_only, etc. are given). Camp_sites are 
always rendered as far as I can find [1] [2].


Dalaas caravan_site is not rendered [3] [4], while the caravan_site in 
Murg [5] [6] has tents=yes and is rendered.


Trusting the knowledge behind OpenCampingMap, it would seem that unless 
a caravan_site is tagged specifically with tents=yes, it is not possible 
to camp with a tent on a caravan_site.


This observation is in line with my earlier proposal to make 
caravan_site *not* allow tents/camping by default. If tents are allowed 
("They may also have some space for tents." on the wiki), then the 
caravan_site should be tagged explicitly with tents=yes.
Are there any objections against this proposed change to the 
caravan_site wiki?


Kind regards,/
Hidde
/

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/283021236
[2] https://opencampingmap.org/#17/47.18396/9.25374/1/1/bef
[3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/129861804#map=17/47.12228/9.99663s 


[4] https://opencampingmap.org/#16/47.1235/9.9975/1/1/bef
[5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/193412043
[6] https://opencampingmap.org/#16/47.1139/9.2110/1/1/bef

/
/

On 16-08-2020 08:16, Warin wrote:

On 15/8/20 4:49 am, Hidde Wieringa wrote:


Good day,

I am having trouble with the tourism tags caravan_site and camp_site, 
specifically for the use case of finding a place to camp with a tent 
(so not a caravan or a camper van).


My goal is to differentiate the two tags. Both tags allow tents, and 
both allow camper vans and caravans. Both tags may or may not provide 
facilities such as toilets, water, electricity, et cetera. In 
practice, the only thing that differentiates a pitch for a tent 
versus a pitch for a caravan or camper van, is the ground underneath 
(tents require some sort of soft material like grass). This 
differentiating property is not mentioned at all in the Wiki.


- The tag tents=yes/no (only listed in the camp_site Wiki) would be a 
good way to find a place to camp with a tent, but almost none of the 
caravan_site have this tag. All camp_sites in OSM I have camped on, 
allowed tents.
- Some of the caravan_site have been tagged with amenity=parking or 
even surface=asphalt and this would mean that camping with a tent is 
definitely not possible.
- I noticed that both of the tags have status 'de facto', and no 
proposals have been made for the definition of said tags. I found an 
abandoned proposal [1] that has a good discussion about camping [2].
- Some camp_sites have a 'nested' polygon with a caravan_site. This 
seems logical, and the caravan_site can be ignored, and the camp_site 
can be used for camping with a tent.


Statistics from TagInfo: camp_site has ~100,000 uses, and 
caravan_site has ~30,000 uses.


I ran a quick Overpass query for a small number of caravan sites 
(~15) [3]. Some of them note on their website that camping with a 
tent is possible, and the surface of the pitches seems to be grass. I 
am wondering if these should be re-tagged as camp_site, or if I am 
missing something.


My opinion would be that a camp_site should allow staying overnight 
with many types of vehicles/tents, indicated by the tags listed 
clearly on the wiki of camp_site. A caravan_site would allow staying 
overnight with vehicles only, and not allow camping with a tent. 
Concretely the sentence "They may also have some space for tents." on 
[4] is the problem. Replacing the sentence on the wiki with "Camping 
with a tent is not possible." would remove any ambiguity 
differentiating these tags.


Any comments are welcome. I am willing to update the wiki or draft a 
proposal for differentiating these two tags, if necessary.


Kind regards,
/Hidde Wieringa/

[1] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site
[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#caravan_site_separated.3F 

[3] https://tyrasd.github.io/overpass-turbo 


[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site



The web site https://opencampingmap.org/#10/48.6100/8.2400/0/1/bef is 
an attempt to encourage mapping of camp and caravan site attributes...




___

Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Warin]

On 15/8/20 4:49 am, Hidde Wieringa wrote:


Good day,

I am having trouble with the tourism tags caravan_site and camp_site, 
specifically for the use case of finding a place to camp with a tent 
(so not a caravan or a camper van).


My goal is to differentiate the two tags. Both tags allow tents, and 
both allow camper vans and caravans. Both tags may or may not provide 
facilities such as toilets, water, electricity, et cetera. In 
practice, the only thing that differentiates a pitch for a tent versus 
a pitch for a caravan or camper van, is the ground underneath (tents 
require some sort of soft material like grass). This differentiating 
property is not mentioned at all in the Wiki.


- The tag tents=yes/no (only listed in the camp_site Wiki) would be a 
good way to find a place to camp with a tent, but almost none of the 
caravan_site have this tag. All camp_sites in OSM I have camped on, 
allowed tents.
- Some of the caravan_site have been tagged with amenity=parking or 
even surface=asphalt and this would mean that camping with a tent is 
definitely not possible.
- I noticed that both of the tags have status 'de facto', and no 
proposals have been made for the definition of said tags. I found an 
abandoned proposal [1] that has a good discussion about camping [2].
- Some camp_sites have a 'nested' polygon with a caravan_site. This 
seems logical, and the caravan_site can be ignored, and the camp_site 
can be used for camping with a tent.


Statistics from TagInfo: camp_site has ~100,000 uses, and caravan_site 
has ~30,000 uses.


I ran a quick Overpass query for a small number of caravan sites (~15) 
[3]. Some of them note on their website that camping with a tent is 
possible, and the surface of the pitches seems to be grass. I am 
wondering if these should be re-tagged as camp_site, or if I am 
missing something.


My opinion would be that a camp_site should allow staying overnight 
with many types of vehicles/tents, indicated by the tags listed 
clearly on the wiki of camp_site. A caravan_site would allow staying 
overnight with vehicles only, and not allow camping with a tent. 
Concretely the sentence "They may also have some space for tents." on 
[4] is the problem. Replacing the sentence on the wiki with "Camping 
with a tent is not possible." would remove any ambiguity 
differentiating these tags.


Any comments are welcome. I am willing to update the wiki or draft a 
proposal for differentiating these two tags, if necessary.


Kind regards,
/Hidde Wieringa/

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site
[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#caravan_site_separated.3F 

[3] https://tyrasd.github.io/overpass-turbo 


[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site



The web site https://opencampingmap.org/#10/48.6100/8.2400/0/1/bef is an 
attempt to encourage mapping of camp and caravan site attributes...



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Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

But what do you do for a place, called a Camping Ground, that is a big area
of grass, mostly without defined "pitches" & where you can camp anyway you
like: sleep in your car; on the ground; in a tent / camper trailer /
caravan / motorhome?

Any period is acceptable, from one night only up to "by discussion with
management", although permanent residents aren't allowed.

Thanks

Graeme


On 14. Aug 2020, at 22:24, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> Both tags allow tents, and both allow camper vans and caravans.
>
>
>
> interesting, I would have expected a caravan site to not permit tents by
> default.
>
>
>
> actually the caravan site puts it a little differently than the above
> summary:
>
> “ They may also have some space for tents. If a site is primarily for
> tents, it should be tagged as tourism
> =camp_site
> ”
>
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Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Aug 2020, at 22:24, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
>> Both tags allow tents, and both allow camper vans and caravans.
> 
> 
> interesting, I would have expected a caravan site to not permit tents by 
> default.


actually the caravan site puts it a little differently than the above summary:

“ They may also have some space for tents. If a site is primarily for tents, it 
should be tagged as tourism=camp_site”

so the tents, while possible, will play a minor role in caravan sites, 
according to the wiki, and it may not be possible to set them up at all.

Maybe, rather than tents=yes/no it could be a property like capacity:tents=n
where no would be expressed as n=0

looked it up, and bang, already in use: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/capacity%3Atents#combinations


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Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Aug 2020, at 22:09, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> - The tag tents=yes/no (only listed in the camp_site Wiki) would be a good 
> way to find a place to camp with a tent, but almost none of the caravan_site 
> have this tag. All camp_sites in OSM I have camped on, allowed tents.
> It seems to me like tag worth adding - you can start mapping it, mention on 
> caravan site on wiki
> and maybe suggest support in various editors (if not rejected already and 
> fitting)


there are also camp sites that require you set up a tent (i.e. they would not 
let you sleep outside on the ground).


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Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Aug 2020, at 20:51, Hidde Wieringa  wrote:
> 
> Both tags allow tents, and both allow camper vans and caravans.


interesting, I would have expected a caravan site to not permit tents by 
default.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Aug 14, 2020, 20:49 by hi...@hiddewieringa.nl:

>
> My goal is to differentiate the two tags. Both tags allow tents,  and 
> both allow camper vans and caravans. Both tags may or may not  provide 
> facilities such as toilets, water, electricity, et cetera.  In practice, 
> the only thing that differentiates a pitch for a tent  versus a pitch for 
> a caravan or camper van, is the ground  underneath
>
>
Not only. There is also a question of access, there are places where caravans 
would be unable to
reach and/or it would be illegal. Such as mountaintop or place in a protected 
area restricting 
vehicle traffic.

>  (tents require some sort of soft material like grass).  This 
> differentiating property is not mentioned at all in the Wiki.
>
Feel free to mention it!

>
>
> - The tag tents=yes/no (only listed in the camp_site Wiki) would  be a 
> good way to find a place to camp with a tent, but almost none  of the 
> caravan_site have this tag. All camp_sites in OSM I have  camped on, 
> allowed tents.
>
>
>
It seems to me like tag worth adding - you can start mapping it, mention on 
caravan site on wiki
and maybe suggest support in various editors (if not rejected already and 
fitting)

>
>
>  -- I noticed that both of the tags have status 'de facto', and no  
> proposals have been made for the definition of said tags. 
>
>
>
This is typical for many OSM tags.

>
>
> I ran a quick Overpass query for a small number of caravan sites  (~15) 
> [3].
>
>
>
This is a very valuable method for exploring how tagging is used in practice.

>
>
>  Some of them note on their website that camping with a  tent is 
> possible, and the surface of the pitches seems to be  grass. I am 
> wondering if these should be re-tagged as camp_site,  or if I am missing 
> something.
>
>
>
> My opinion would be that a camp_site should allow staying  overnight with 
> many types of vehicles/tents, indicated by the tags  listed clearly on 
> the wiki of camp_site. A caravan_site would  allow staying overnight with 
> vehicles only, and not allow camping  with a tent. 
>
>
I think that something with space for 200 caravans and 2 tents would be well 
tagged as caravan_site.
Similarly, objects where tents are allowed only if there is plenty of free 
space.

> Concretely the sentence "They may also have some  space for tents." on 
> [4] is the problem. Replacing the sentence on  the wiki with "Camping 
> with a tent is not possible." would remove  any ambiguity differentiating 
> these tags.
>
The problem is that wiki edit will not magically resurvey all of them. With 
such de facto tags
it is typically too late to redefine them and OSM Wiki documents actual use.

> Any comments are welcome. I am willing to update the wiki or  draft a 
> proposal for differentiating these two tags, if necessary.
>
Thanks for posting to this list to discuss it!

I think that better way to handle this may be promotion of tag for marking
"are tents allowed here".

Maybe it is something that should be added as field to editors for relevant 
object?
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[Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

[Hidde Wieringa]

Good day,

I am having trouble with the tourism tags caravan_site and camp_site, 
specifically for the use case of finding a place to camp with a tent (so 
not a caravan or a camper van).


My goal is to differentiate the two tags. Both tags allow tents, and 
both allow camper vans and caravans. Both tags may or may not provide 
facilities such as toilets, water, electricity, et cetera. In practice, 
the only thing that differentiates a pitch for a tent versus a pitch for 
a caravan or camper van, is the ground underneath (tents require some 
sort of soft material like grass). This differentiating property is not 
mentioned at all in the Wiki.


- The tag tents=yes/no (only listed in the camp_site Wiki) would be a 
good way to find a place to camp with a tent, but almost none of the 
caravan_site have this tag. All camp_sites in OSM I have camped on, 
allowed tents.
- Some of the caravan_site have been tagged with amenity=parking or even 
surface=asphalt and this would mean that camping with a tent is 
definitely not possible.
- I noticed that both of the tags have status 'de facto', and no 
proposals have been made for the definition of said tags. I found an 
abandoned proposal [1] that has a good discussion about camping [2].
- Some camp_sites have a 'nested' polygon with a caravan_site. This 
seems logical, and the caravan_site can be ignored, and the camp_site 
can be used for camping with a tent.


Statistics from TagInfo: camp_site has ~100,000 uses, and caravan_site 
has ~30,000 uses.


I ran a quick Overpass query for a small number of caravan sites (~15) 
[3]. Some of them note on their website that camping with a tent is 
possible, and the surface of the pitches seems to be grass. I am 
wondering if these should be re-tagged as camp_site, or if I am missing 
something.


My opinion would be that a camp_site should allow staying overnight with 
many types of vehicles/tents, indicated by the tags listed clearly on 
the wiki of camp_site. A caravan_site would allow staying overnight with 
vehicles only, and not allow camping with a tent. Concretely the 
sentence "They may also have some space for tents." on [4] is the 
problem. Replacing the sentence on the wiki with "Camping with a tent is 
not possible." would remove any ambiguity differentiating these tags.


Any comments are welcome. I am willing to update the wiki or draft a 
proposal for differentiating these two tags, if necessary.


Kind regards,
/Hidde Wieringa/

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site
[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#caravan_site_separated.3F 

[3] https://tyrasd.github.io/overpass-turbo 


[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site

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