Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Warin]

On 04/09/18 01:58, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

3. Wrzesień 2018 13:16 od pla16...@gmail.com :

In favour of "for a": landuse=forestry (except it ended up being
named landuse=forest).  The land is used FOR
forestry.


You area may be very unusual, in general landuse=forest is used for 
"this area is a forest" or


sometimes "this area is covered by trees".



It appears that it depends on where you are as to what is 'usual'.

Here in general an area of trees is tagged natural=wood. Note that the 
key natural accepts human intervention.
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Mateusz Konieczny]

3. Wrzesień 2018 13:16 od pla16...@gmail.com :


> In favour of "for a": landuse=forestry (except it ended up being named 
> landuse=forest).  The land is used FOR> forestry.




You area may be very unusual, in general landuse=forest is used for "this area 
is a forest" or

sometimes "this area is covered by trees".

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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I don't see any tags in favour of "for a",
>

I didn't either.  But I didn't look very hard.


> the common tag is landuse=forest not forestry,
>

You have introduced the perennial [groan] problem with landuse=forest.  The
wiki made clear it was
intended to mean land used for forestry, instead most people interpreted it
as meaning land with a
forest on it, which is better tagged as landcover=trees or natural=wood.
Going by the intended meaning,
landuse=forest was meant to indicate land used for logging.


> other tags include "greenfield", "brownfield", "landfill", village_green,
> farmland, farmyard.
>

Yeah, I think the "is a" relationship wins by a large margin, and
landuse=meadow fits those semantics.

Now we can have a long (and not very productive) argument about whether
landuse ought to mean "for
a" relationships.

This list constantly reminds me of the aphorism by Frederick P Brooks when
writing about the design of
operating systems and business applications: "[...] plan to throw one away;
you will; anyhow."  Your
first attempt will be sub-optimal, but you'll learn how to do it right the
next time.

With the benefit of hindsight, we could come up with a far better (more
consistent, more comprehensible)
system of tagging based upon what we've learned.  But we won't (can't) do
that because it would essentially
mean mapping EVERYTHING again (a major percentage of objects will not be
directly translatable).  So all
we can do is try not to make it worse by adding even more tags that are
inconsistent, incomprehensible,
and have a natural interpretation that contradicts how they're meant to be
used (forest/forestry).

Then again, according to Ralph Waldo Emerson "A foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of little minds."

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-09-03 13:16 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The land is not used by/for  'meadow'.
>> It is used to produce animal_fodder .. so landuse=animal_fodder would be
>> a better term.
>>
>
> That depends if you view landuse as specifying a "for a" relationship or
> an "is a" relationship or can specify either.
>
> In favour of "for a": landuse=forestry (except it ended up being named
> landuse=forest).  The land is used FOR
> forestry.
>
> In favour of "is a": landuse=quarry.  The land IS a quarry.
>
>


I don't see any tags in favour of "for a", the common tag is landuse=forest
not forestry, other tags include "greenfield", "brownfield", "landfill",
village_green, farmland, farmyard.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Sep 2018, at 02:50, Tod Fitch  wrote:
> 
> What is the “use” of a meadow that makes it a meadow rather than, say and 
> area of un-mowed, un-grazed herbaceous flowers and grasses?


the areas I am familiar with for the latter you describe are either 
natural=heath or they become forests after some years of neither mowing nor 
grazing.
Or they are above the tree line. Or maybe more (temperature in general, other 
conditions that don’t let grow trees), I agree a meadow does not have to be 
mown, but if it’s used for grazing (not after cutting a meadow for hay) it is a 
pasture.

When speaking of “use” it seems logical to assume agricultural use, which would 
mean a meadow is used for the production of hay.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

The land is not used by/for  'meadow'.
> It is used to produce animal_fodder .. so landuse=animal_fodder would be a
> better term.
>

That depends if you view landuse as specifying a "for a" relationship or an
"is a" relationship or can specify either.

In favour of "for a": landuse=forestry (except it ended up being named
landuse=forest).  The land is used FOR
forestry.

In favour of "is a": landuse=quarry.  The land IS a quarry.

It seems to me that enforcing "for a" relationships would mean deprecating
landuse=quarry for landuse=roof
(when the quarry was for slate, and the primary use of that slate was
roofing), landuse=doorstep (slate quarry
used for doorsteps - common in parts of Wales), landuse=roof;doorstep,
etc.  Then landuse=road when it's
a quarry for aggregate.  And landuse=fire when it's an opencast coal mine.
Doesn't seem to work very well if
we enforce "for a" relationships for all landuse.

Maybe quarry was a bad example.  How about landuse=allotments?  That would
have to be landuse=gardening,
because it's not land that has allotments on it but land that is used for
gardening.  Landuse=cemetary has to
become landuse=dead_bodies, because it is for dead bodies.  Landuse=garages
- the land isn't used by
garages, it's used by people parking cars, so landuse=cars or
landuse=people.

I conclude that your 'the land is not used by/for "meadow"', if applied
generally, would be unworkable.  I am
therefore happy that landuse=meadow means that the land IS a meadow in the
same way that landuse=quarry
means that the land IS a quarry.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[SelfishSeahorse]

I remember it has been discussed, but maybe not on this list.

The problem was that different wiki pages had different definitions of
landuse=meadow (used to tag land used for hay and for grazing animals),
natural=grassland (mainly used to tag natural grassland/meadows) and
landuse=farmland (used to tag land used for tillage and for grazing
animals). The edit was an attempt to solve that issue.

Regards
Markus

On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 00:00 Martin Koppenhoefer, 
wrote:

> Another change I noticed which wasn’t discussed AFAIR:
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:landuse%3Dmeadow=prev=1515853
>
>
> Comments?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> sent from a phone
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Peter Elderson]

I am city. To me a meadow is a storage area for farm animals.

Op ma 3 sep. 2018 om 02:52 schreef Tod Fitch :

>
> > On Sep 2, 2018, at 5:41 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> >> On 3. Sep 2018, at 02:31, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The land is not used by/for  'meadow'.
> >
> >
> > it is used as a meadow
> >
>
> There are natural meadows within the forested areas in the mountains near
> me. At least they look like the typical images I see of meadows and the
> locals call them meadows. The use is exactly the same as the use of the
> surrounding forest: Recreation, wild life management, etc. What is the
> “use” of a meadow that makes it a meadow rather than, say and area of
> un-mowed, un-grazed herbaceous flowers and grasses?
>
> For what its worth, I’ve been tagging them with landcover=grass though
> that is not exactly correct and it is not purely grass as there are usually
> a bunch of flowing plants intermixed.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
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-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Tod Fitch]

> On Sep 2, 2018, at 5:41 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 3. Sep 2018, at 02:31, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> The land is not used by/for  'meadow'.
> 
> 
> it is used as a meadow
> 

There are natural meadows within the forested areas in the mountains near me. 
At least they look like the typical images I see of meadows and the locals call 
them meadows. The use is exactly the same as the use of the surrounding forest: 
Recreation, wild life management, etc. What is the “use” of a meadow that makes 
it a meadow rather than, say and area of un-mowed, un-grazed herbaceous flowers 
and grasses?

For what its worth, I’ve been tagging them with landcover=grass though that is 
not exactly correct and it is not purely grass as there are usually a bunch of 
flowing plants intermixed.

Cheers!




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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Sep 2018, at 02:31, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The land is not used by/for  'meadow'.


it is used as a meadow 


cheers,
Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Warin]

On 03/09/18 10:05, Paul Allen wrote:
On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 12:59 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:


meadow in this context means land where grass and other plants
grow high (rather than let animals graze) so they can be cut to
produce hay or silage. I would not question the term landuse in
this case.


+1


The land is not used by/for  'meadow'.
It is used to produce animal_fodder .. so landuse=animal_fodder would be 
a better term.


Land use should not have values of land cover but rather the land use.
This helps separate it from the cover and sets it as the use. Mixing it 
with the cover than gets mappers to use things like landuse=shrub, sand, 
rock etc.
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 12:59 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

meadow in this context means land where grass and other plants grow high
> (rather than let animals graze) so they can be cut to produce hay or
> silage. I would not question the term landuse in this case.
>

+1
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Sep 2018, at 01:23, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Land use? What is the land used for?
> It should not be defined as the land cover!


meadow in this context means land where grass and other plants grow high 
(rather than let animals graze) so they can be cut to produce hay or silage. I 
would not question the term landuse in this case.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Warin]

On 03/09/18 07:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Another change I noticed which wasn’t discussed AFAIR:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:landuse%3Dmeadow=prev=1515853


Comments?




Land use? What is the land used for?
It should not be defined as the land cover!

It is a poor tag with that value and that key. I'd depreciate it.


Note also the later changes to the definitions of landuse=grass and 
natural=grassland.
Again these are poor tags with those values and those keys. I'd 
depreciate them.


The case for landcover is clear.

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[Tagging] wiki modification landuse=meadow definition

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Another change I noticed which wasn’t discussed AFAIR:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:landuse%3Dmeadow=prev=1515853


Comments?


Cheers,
Martin 

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