Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
Am 23.04.2015 um 19:43 schrieb Craig Wallace: fire_extinguisher:class:uk=8A 55B 75F In general and also valid here: Please, add the LC to to value and not to the key. This way we only need one tag and not one for every country. fire_extinguisher:class=UK:8A;UK:55B;UK:75F Thanks fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
Am 24.04.2015 um 01:46 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Extinguishers are placed by the requirements of possible fires in that location. So if you find one local to the fire it should be suitable for use there. Thus added tagging should serve little to no purpose. yes, it is clear that for extinguishing a fire you would rather look on the text on the extinguisher than on OSM. This thread is not about extinguishing fires but how to describe these objects if you want to cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
2015-04-24 11:34 GMT+02:00 Florian LAINEZ winner...@free.fr: 1. Describe the classes: they are not standard internationally and I think we should avoid them +1 1. Describe the local classes: not suitable worldwide as long as you have correct country / standard namespaces, you can do this and will have the information that is needed (but likely will have to be normalized by the data consumer). This seems easy for the mapper though (he can tag what he sees). 1. 2. Describe the combustible: it requires to understand the kind of fire that is suitable for an extinguisher : It can be subjective as the brakets denote in the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#United_Kingdom Also we would potentially have multiple keys e.g. fire_extinguisher_class=ordinary_combustibles;flammable liquid;electricity we could have a table in the wiki that defines human readable values for the classes that you can see on the extinguisher, e.g. Comparison of fire classes American European UK Australian/Asian Fuel/heat source Class A Class A Class A Class A Ordinary combustibles Class B Class B Class B Class B Flammable liquids Class C Class C Class C Flammable gases Class C UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED Class E Electrical equipment Class D Class D Class D Class D Combustible metals Class K Class F Class F Class F Cooking oil or fat The tag name could also be more explicit, e.g. fire_extinguisher_for_fire_type or for_fire_type the values could be ordinary_combustibles (or maybe generic, normal, ordinary?), liquids, gases, electrical, metals, fat 1. Describe the kind of combustible: again it requires to understand the kind of fire that is suitable for an extinguisher again, could be a translation table in the wiki to normalize local standard to normalized human readable value 1. 2. Describe the type of powder: could be a good solution but the bad think is that we would potentially have multiple keys e.g. fire_extinguisher_class=water;foam;dry_powder the usual solution for avoiding multiple values is putting them in the key, e.g. fire_extinguisher_agent:water=yes or more linguistically correct extinguishing_agent:water=yes My choice would be 5. Describe the type of powder with the following keys: - water - foam - dry_powder - co2 - wet_chemical - class_D - halon These seem to be different types of descriptions, water, co2 and halon are describing the chemical material or group of materials foam, dry_powder, wet_chemical are describing the shape and aggregate state class_D is refering to some standard cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
Hi everyone, thanks for your feedback, I can see that the topic is much more complicated than I expected. Let's sum up our proposals: 1. Describe the classes fire_extinguisher_class=A 2. Describe the local classes fire_extinguisher_class:uk=8A 55B 75F 3. Describe the combustible fire_extinguisher_class=ordinary_combustibles 4. Describe the kind of combustible fire_extinguisher:electrical=yes or fire_extinguisher=electrical 5. Describe the type of powder fire_extinguisher_class=water 6. Describe the written label fire_extinguisher:label=black What I think of them: 1. Describe the classes: they are not standard internationally and I think we should avoid them 2. Describe the local classes: not suitable worldwide 3. Describe the combustible: it requires to understand the kind of fire that is suitable for an extinguisher : It can be subjective as the brakets denote in the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#United_Kingdom Also we would potentially have multiple keys e.g. fire_extinguisher_class=ordinary_combustibles;flammable liquid;electricity 4. Describe the kind of combustible: again it requires to understand the kind of fire that is suitable for an extinguisher 5. Describe the type of powder: could be a good solution but the bad think is that we would potentially have multiple keys e.g. fire_extinguisher_class=water;foam;dry_powder 6. Describe the written label: difficult to standardise It seems that none of these solutions is perfect, which one do you think would be the best as an international standard? My choice would be 5. Describe the type of powder with the following keys: - water - foam - dry_powder - co2 - wet_chemical - class_D - halon Again, it's the only tag that describes the object itself without interpretation and that can be standardised. Of course it would require a conversion table, but either way I guess we'll have to go through this process. Have a good day 2015-04-24 8:34 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 24.04.2015 um 01:46 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Extinguishers are placed by the requirements of possible fires in that location. So if you find one local to the fire it should be suitable for use there. Thus added tagging should serve little to no purpose. yes, it is clear that for extinguishing a fire you would rather look on the text on the extinguisher than on OSM. This thread is not about extinguishing fires but how to describe these objects if you want to cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- *Florian Lainez* @overflorian http://twitter.com/overflorian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote: In the UK, the class is not printed huge letters. They main thing they are labelled with is the contents of the extinguisher, with a coloured stripe. ie red for water, blue for powder, black for CO2. Then tag whatever's visible if the goal is to help someone find the device: fire_extinguisher:label=Class B/C fire_extinguisher:label=Black Though anyone who consults their smartphone during a fire is probably missing the point :-). Class 8A 55B 75F is for the person purchasing the device, or learning what's available in a facility, not so much for during the emergency. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
On 2015-04-23 18:01, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 5:31 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: That makes much more sense, and as you say, maps the physical characteristics. The letters seem like specialist knowledge that few people will be aware of. Phil (trigpoint ) But the letter codes are exactly what's printed in huge letters right on the extinguisher. That makes them easily verifiable, and instantly localized since you'd tag what's on the ground in your country. Class A In the UK, the class is not printed huge letters. They main thing they are labelled with is the contents of the extinguisher, with a coloured stripe. ie red for water, blue for powder, black for CO2. Some fire extinguishers also give more detailed specifications for the class etc. But this is usually not very obvious, you would have to look closely to spot it. Note a fire extinguisher can be suitable for several classes of fire, and it may give a rating for each. eg the specification might say: 8A 55B 75F I think it is worth tagging both the materials in the extinguisher, and the class/rating where it is known. And probably worth using different tags for the class in each country. eg something like this: fire_extinguisher:material=water fire_extinguisher:class:uk=8A 55B 75F ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 5:31 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: That makes much more sense, and as you say, maps the physical characteristics. The letters seem like specialist knowledge that few people will be aware of. Phil (trigpoint ) But the letter codes are exactly what's printed in huge letters right on the extinguisher. That makes them easily verifiable, and instantly localized since you'd tag what's on the ground in your country. Class A Putting the translation into OSM will help exactly zero people use the right extinguisher in a real fire. It would take ages to agree on a scheme, and then mappers would not follow it anyway. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
The fire type is most important, but depending on the material used, it can be used on several types - So +1 for tagging the material first and foremost. Most common household extinguishers in the US are dry powder ABC extinguishers. At the bottom of the #united states section is a conversion chart - and they all lead back to what _type of fire_ is trying to be put out: Regular combustibles Liquids Gasses Electrical Metals Fats So my US ABC extinguisher in my garage would be: Fire_extinguisher=dry_powder Fire_extinguisher:regular=yes Fire_extinguisher:liquids=yes Fire_extinguisher:gasses=yes Fire_extinguisher:electrical=yes Fire_extinguisher:USA_code=ABC Fire_extinguisher:checked_date:old Colour=white Optional for my extinguisher Fire_extinguisher:cert_until:old Fire_extinguisher:signed=no Fire_extinguisher:metals=no Fire_extinguisher:fats=no Fire_extinguisher:label=no My old ABC ones are white, so color doesn't always denote what is inside. Trees are no label color codes in the U.S. The letter codes change per location, so noting if it is UK or NZ or US is important. Many fire extinguishers in public places are signed. In Japan they have cabinets, cases, lockers, little stands with a sign, and ones with a cone hat on top to keep the dust off. They have them everywhere in public buildings, sitting in a corner in a little stand with a little sign on a little pole. http://ec.midori-anzen.com/img/goods/L/4082101826.jpg http://media.mediatemple.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/uploader/images/signs/fire-extinguisher-operating-guide/full_nagoya-shopping-mall-fire-extinguisher-operating-guide.jpg Cataloging the check date could be very useful to some mappers. If it doesn't have a pressure dial and is passed its expiration, it should be marked =old - as it is assumed without inspection the extinguisher is old or expired, and may not be reliable. If it has no pressure gauge and is expired, then it is very important to tag =old/expired - but having used a couple expired ones to put out a fire, I'm glad they were there. For extinguishers with visible pressure gauges, the person collecting the data is the checker, and therefore the data collection date is the check date, since it can easily be seen on many fire extinguishers if it is correctly pressurized. Certified extinguishers have a cert tag that will note the date that the extinguisher is certified to. People managing extinguishers might find that really nice to know if they want to collect the data for their uses (like a fire dept or something). Javbw On Apr 24, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote: In the UK, the class is not printed huge letters. They main thing they are labelled with is the contents of the extinguisher, with a coloured stripe. ie red for water, blue for powder, black for CO2. Then tag whatever's visible if the goal is to help someone find the device: fire_extinguisher:label=Class B/C fire_extinguisher:label=Black Though anyone who consults their smartphone during a fire is probably missing the point :-). Class 8A 55B 75F is for the person purchasing the device, or learning what's available in a facility, not so much for during the emergency. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
Am 23.04.2015 um 19:01 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: Putting the translation into OSM will help exactly zero people use the right extinguisher in a real fire. why? There won't be a letter on the fire, so you would anyway have to make an adaptation to your situation. The tags won't necessarily be what you see on a map. The problem with classes was, that every region has their own classes, eg an American class B can be either class B or C in Europe while the American class C doesn't exist in Europe. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
While fire extinguishers have various codes ... Extinguishers are placed by the requirements of possible fires in that location. So if you find one local to the fire it should be suitable for use there. Thus added tagging should serve little to no purpose. Sorry to be so practical but people don't look for a map when faced with a fire .. they look for the red triangle that signifies a fire extinguisher location. They then take and try to use it on the fire, no stopping to read codes. === The problem becomes one of function .. 'refurbished' units have a very high failure rate. If you are in that situation .. try it before you drag it to the fire! The thing professional fire fighters go by is the colour ... in an emergency they don't stop to read the codes.. they look at the colour. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
On Apr 24, 2015, at 8:46 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: they look at the colour. I agree that the letter codes wouldn't be used when looking for an extinguisher, but it is used for managing them. The color codes are not universal either. Also, here in Japan there are hello kitty fire extinguishers. I wonder what fire they put out. http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Sd55bFa_--/t9mjwszslwfxhxpqn9qu.jpg All public extinguishers are red (with a hose). I've used red, black, and white ones (all dry powder) in the U.S., and in my basement is a sea-foam green one (that's maybe 40 years old). I think it is a water filled one. Color codes only work in certain countries or regions. We may only need to render the extinguisher icon, but the other info can be useful to people checking on distribution or age, or looking to see what ones are mapped vs what exist (like looking for the black wall mounted one) Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] fire extinguisher class
Hi, it's the first time I write to this mailing list, I am a french contributor interested in train stations. I want to describe more precisely an extinguisher and I have seen the tag emergency=fire_extinguisher that is used de facto. What about adding some details regarding the type with fire_extinguisher=A for an extinguisher class A? Please comment my proposal on the discussion page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:emergency%3Dfire_extinguisher Have a good day -- *Florian Lainez* @overflorian http://twitter.com/overflorian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
On Thu Apr 23 10:38:13 2015 GMT+0100, Florian LAINEZ wrote: Hi, it's the first time I write to this mailing list, I am a french contributor interested in train stations. I want to describe more precisely an extinguisher and I have seen the tag emergency=fire_extinguisher that is used de facto. What about adding some details regarding the type with fire_extinguisher=A for an extinguisher class A? Please comment my proposal on the discussion page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:emergency%3Dfire_extinguisher Have a good day Class A, B seems a bit confusing. I would not be able to map this without reference to the wiki. I have just checked the office extinguishers and can instantly see one powder and one foam. Neither is labelled with a letter. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
2015-04-23 11:38 GMT+02:00 Florian LAINEZ winner...@free.fr: What about adding some details regarding the type with fire_extinguisher=A for an extinguisher class A? The classification system seems to vary between different regions, see here for a comparison table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#United_States I suggest to use a more literal tag like fire_extinguisher_class=ordinary_combustibles etc. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
Thanks for the feedback. I am not expert at all on the topic therefore I am open to describe with literal description. I just double checked in my office (in France) and couldn't find easily any literal mention. One the other way the class A and B were clearly mentioned. Therefore I think we will have to create a conversion table. I tried to find an international standard for classes but couldn't find any. Therefore what if, instead of mentioning the combustible (e.g. ordinary combustible) we mention the powder. After all, in OSM we try to describe the physical elements themselves, not the use of them. Therefore I propose the categories mentioned here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#United_Kingdom that are : water, foam, dry powder, Carbon dioxide (CO2), Wet chemical, Class D powder, Halon 1211/BCF An example would be fire_extinguisher_class=water instead of fire_extinguisher_class=ordinary_combustibles 2015-04-23 11:57 GMT+02:00 p...@trigpoint.me.uk: On Thu Apr 23 10:38:13 2015 GMT+0100, Florian LAINEZ wrote: Hi, it's the first time I write to this mailing list, I am a french contributor interested in train stations. I want to describe more precisely an extinguisher and I have seen the tag emergency=fire_extinguisher that is used de facto. What about adding some details regarding the type with fire_extinguisher=A for an extinguisher class A? Please comment my proposal on the discussion page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:emergency%3Dfire_extinguisher Have a good day Class A, B seems a bit confusing. I would not be able to map this without reference to the wiki. I have just checked the office extinguishers and can instantly see one powder and one foam. Neither is labelled with a letter. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- *Florian Lainez* @overflorian http://twitter.com/overflorian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
That makes much more sense, and as you say, maps the physical characteristics. The letters seem like specialist knowledge that few people will be aware of. Phil (trigpoint ) On Thu Apr 23 13:11:46 2015 GMT+0100, Florian LAINEZ wrote: Thanks for the feedback. I am not expert at all on the topic therefore I am open to describe with literal description. I just double checked in my office (in France) and couldn't find easily any literal mention. One the other way the class A and B were clearly mentioned. Therefore I think we will have to create a conversion table. I tried to find an international standard for classes but couldn't find any. Therefore what if, instead of mentioning the combustible (e.g. ordinary combustible) we mention the powder. After all, in OSM we try to describe the physical elements themselves, not the use of them. Therefore I propose the categories mentioned here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#United_Kingdom that are : water, foam, dry powder, Carbon dioxide (CO2), Wet chemical, Class D powder, Halon 1211/BCF An example would be fire_extinguisher_class=water instead of fire_extinguisher_class=ordinary_combustibles 2015-04-23 11:57 GMT+02:00 p...@trigpoint.me.uk: On Thu Apr 23 10:38:13 2015 GMT+0100, Florian LAINEZ wrote: Hi, it's the first time I write to this mailing list, I am a french contributor interested in train stations. I want to describe more precisely an extinguisher and I have seen the tag emergency=fire_extinguisher that is used de facto. What about adding some details regarding the type with fire_extinguisher=A for an extinguisher class A? Please comment my proposal on the discussion page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:emergency%3Dfire_extinguisher Have a good day Class A, B seems a bit confusing. I would not be able to map this without reference to the wiki. I have just checked the office extinguishers and can instantly see one powder and one foam. Neither is labelled with a letter. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- *Florian Lainez* @overflorian http://twitter.com/overflorian -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
