Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[marc marc]

Le 06. 06. 18 à 15:02, Dave F a écrit :
> municipal_maintained=yes

operator=name_of_the_municipality and/or operator:type=public :)
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Dave F]

On 06/06/2018 12:48, Paul Allen wrote:


Actually, there is a difference.

If grass is grown for a purpose (be it grazing or mere decoration) 
it's landuse.  If it's
there naturally and not used (by man) for any purpose (or incidental 
to man's purposes)

then it's landcover.  At least, that's how I see it.


I see grass as grass. If it's maintained by humans, that should be 
described in sub-tags, not in different key tags. Something like:

landuse=grass
municipal_maintained=yes

The same problem occurs with woods, where natural/landuse is used to 
differentiate whether it's human managed. (In fact it's often further 
misused to describe density of the trees). Again all 'adjective' 
descriptions should be recorded in sub=tags.


DaveF


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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Just look at the issues related to landcover for carto-css on github,
> e.g. https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2548
>
>
[...]

> * not enough instances
>

And if it gets used a lot the argument will be that there are too many
instances and the map will
be 'cluttered'.



> * what's the difference with landuse
>

If there's no difference then there's no reason not to make landuse an
alias for landcover.

Actually, there is a difference.

If grass is grown for a purpose (be it grazing or mere decoration) it's
landuse.  If it's
there naturally and not used (by man) for any purpose (or incidental to
man's purposes)
then it's landcover.  At least, that's how I see it.

In fact, looking at the wiki, it states that landcover=grass is better than
landuse=grass
for things like "patches of grass between tracks in railway corridor."
Makes sense to
me, it's not for grazing, it's not decorative, it's there because there's
no point in
removing it.  In cases like that, I don't see a major problem in it not
being
rendered.  OTOH, the South American Pampas is probably best described as
landcover=grass so it would be nice if it rendred.

My overall conclusion is that "municipal greenery" is landuse rather than
landcover
because it's the way that it is because humans made decisions that it
should be
that way (even if it was the decision make it a protected area and leave it
alone).
Landuse=grass renders.  Landuse=flowerbed has been used over 1,000 times but
isn't documented and doesn't render, although grass and flowerbeds probably
account for most "municipal greenery."

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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Peter Elderson]

Yeah, saw that exchange before but missed the last ugly part. Mexican
standoff? Deadlock? Hm, let's call it an impasse.

I'll think about it.

2018-06-06 13:02 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> Just look at the issues related to landcover for carto-css on github,
> e.g. https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2548
>
> * not rendered elsewhere
> * not enough instances
> * what's the difference with landuse
>
> are some of the arguments I've seen.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
> > This issue has a long history... seems to me tagging awaits rendering,
> and
> > rendering awaits tagging. In such cases, you need a commitment from both
> > sides, with enough support to fuel trust. Then things can get rolling.
> >
> > I am pretty sure about the tagging side - the problem is recognized,
> there
> > are ideas, and I think a solution can be found whether over left or over
> > right. I am not sure about the rendering side. There's no use in tagging
> a
> > lot then throw it at the renderers and hearing: nice try, can't be done,
> or:
> > fine, we'll see if someone picks it up next century. Ok, exaggerated, but
> > wouldn't it be better to engage earlier and get a commitment and lay out
> a
> > road map?
> >
> > 2018-06-06 11:58 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> sent from a phone
> >>
> >> On 5. Jun 2018, at 10:02, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> >>
> >> E.g. replace landuse=village_green with landuse=decorative (defaut
> >> rendering=greenish) then add landcover=scrub|trees|bushes|sand|gravel
> as
> >> needed.
> >>
> >>
> >> “decorative” is not a good name, if the intention is mapping only
> >> greenery. I would add a component or use a wording which makes it more
> >> specific, e.g. “greenery” or “verdure” or maybe “decorative_planting”?
> >>
> >> If this was intended for all kind of decorative installations, maybe
> >> landuse=street_decoration? Although I would see these generally as
> elements
> >> (e.g. amenity or man_made) within a landuse like “highway”.
> >>
> >> If rendering of these landcover values could be foreseen in the near
> >> future, retagging can be expected and a lot of fake orchards,
> mini-forests
> >> and fak village_greens would disappear from Nederland.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If you want to see the landcover tag rendered, one of the most important
> >> things to do is use it wherever it can apply.
> >>
> >>
> >> cheers,
> >> Martin
> >>
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Vr gr Peter Elderson
> >
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Marc Gemis]

Just look at the issues related to landcover for carto-css on github,
e.g. https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2548

* not rendered elsewhere
* not enough instances
* what's the difference with landuse

are some of the arguments I've seen.


On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> This issue has a long history... seems to me tagging awaits rendering, and
> rendering awaits tagging. In such cases, you need a commitment from both
> sides, with enough support to fuel trust. Then things can get rolling.
>
> I am pretty sure about the tagging side - the problem is recognized, there
> are ideas, and I think a solution can be found whether over left or over
> right. I am not sure about the rendering side. There's no use in tagging a
> lot then throw it at the renderers and hearing: nice try, can't be done, or:
> fine, we'll see if someone picks it up next century. Ok, exaggerated, but
> wouldn't it be better to engage earlier and get a commitment and lay out a
> road map?
>
> 2018-06-06 11:58 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 5. Jun 2018, at 10:02, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>>
>> E.g. replace landuse=village_green with landuse=decorative (defaut
>> rendering=greenish) then add landcover=scrub|trees|bushes|sand|gravel as
>> needed.
>>
>>
>> “decorative” is not a good name, if the intention is mapping only
>> greenery. I would add a component or use a wording which makes it more
>> specific, e.g. “greenery” or “verdure” or maybe “decorative_planting”?
>>
>> If this was intended for all kind of decorative installations, maybe
>> landuse=street_decoration? Although I would see these generally as elements
>> (e.g. amenity or man_made) within a landuse like “highway”.
>>
>> If rendering of these landcover values could be foreseen in the near
>> future, retagging can be expected and a lot of fake orchards, mini-forests
>> and fak village_greens would disappear from Nederland.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to see the landcover tag rendered, one of the most important
>> things to do is use it wherever it can apply.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Peter Elderson]

This issue has a long history... seems to me tagging awaits rendering, and
rendering awaits tagging. In such cases, you need a commitment from both
sides, with enough support to fuel trust. Then things can get rolling.

I am pretty sure about the tagging side - the problem is recognized, there
are ideas, and I think a solution can be found whether over left or over
right. I am not sure about the rendering side. There's no use in tagging a
lot then throw it at the renderers and hearing: nice try, can't be done,
or: fine, we'll see if someone picks it up next century. Ok, exaggerated,
but wouldn't it be better to engage earlier and get a commitment and lay
out a road map?

2018-06-06 11:58 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 5. Jun 2018, at 10:02, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>
> E.g. replace landuse=village_green with landuse=decorative (defaut
> rendering=greenish) then add landcover=scrub|trees|bushes|sand|gravel as
> needed.
>
>
> “decorative” is not a good name, if the intention is mapping only
> greenery. I would add a component or use a wording which makes it more
> specific, e.g. “greenery” or “verdure” or maybe “decorative_planting”?
>
> If this was intended for all kind of decorative installations, maybe
> landuse=street_decoration? Although I would see these generally as elements
> (e.g. amenity or man_made) within a landuse like “highway”.
>
> If rendering of these landcover values could be foreseen in the near
> future, retagging can be expected and a lot of fake orchards, mini-forests
> and fak village_greens would disappear from Nederland.
>
>
>
> If you want to see the landcover tag rendered, one of the most important
> things to do is use it wherever it can apply.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. Jun 2018, at 10:02, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> 
> E.g. replace landuse=village_green with landuse=decorative (defaut 
> rendering=greenish) then add landcover=scrub|trees|bushes|sand|gravel as 
> needed.
> 

“decorative” is not a good name, if the intention is mapping only greenery. I 
would add a component or use a wording which makes it more specific, e.g. 
“greenery” or “verdure” or maybe “decorative_planting”?

If this was intended for all kind of decorative installations, maybe 
landuse=street_decoration? Although I would see these generally as elements 
(e.g. amenity or man_made) within a landuse like “highway”.

> If rendering of these landcover values could be foreseen in the near future, 
> retagging can be expected and a lot of fake orchards, mini-forests and fak 
> village_greens would disappear from Nederland.
> 


If you want to see the landcover tag rendered, one of the most important things 
to do is use it wherever it can apply.


cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Peter Elderson]

I imagine that
- people  that use landuse=grass, landuse=forest/wood, natural=scrub since
it renders, would be willing to use landuse=[something appropriate],
landcover=grass|trees|scrub|... if it would render

-  people that use landcover=... (and don't care about empty spots on the
map), would not mind if it rendered and might be persuaded to add a
collective landuse=[something appropriate] if it adds a nice green default
rendering

- people that  use landuse=village_green since it renders, would not object
to using a correct landuse instead, if it has about the same nice green
default rendering.

- people that map it as leisure=garden could be persuaded to use a landuse
type instead, if it has a nice default rendering and the extra to specify
whats on it

- I do not foresee much support for public:green=yes, it adds unnecessary
complexity

- man_made=*, I don't know. Everything in Nederland is man_made, and it
doesn't apply to how the land is used or covered. Seems more appropriate
for constructed objects, I don't see anyone replacing all motorway-lining
fake-orchards with man_made=???


2018-06-05 10:43 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> From previous discussions on this topic I learned that there are
> several groups with different ideas about the tagging (see the Dutch
> forum, as well as in the archives of this mailing list, the help
> website and the General-topic on the forum)
>
> The groups I see
>
> - people that use landuse=grass, landuse=forest/wood, natural=scrub
> since it renders
> - people that use landcover=... (and don't care about empty spots on the
> map)
> - people that  use landuse=village_green since it renders
> - people that map it as leisure=garden
> - some Dutch people invented a new tag, something like "public:green=yes"
> or so
> - and in this thread I learned that some will use man_made=flowerbed
> or man_made="something green".
>
> there are pro's and con's for all those approaches and I don't see the
> community coming to consensus soon. It would make a nice topic for
> workshop on SOTM :-)
>
> regards
>
>
> m
>
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
> > landuse=village_green is used a lot. That works fine for grass-covered
> > areas, because it's rendered green, but it misinterprets the term
> > village_green and we're still stuck with the scrub, forest, orchard and
> > hedge type greenery areas. The wiki for village_green says:
> >
> > This tag is very often not used to map the distinctive part of a village
> > centre as described above, but to map all kinds of mixed vegetation
> (plants,
> > bushes, flowers, small trees, grass), mostly in urban areas, very often
> > maintained by the Municipality. See the photos on the talk page for this
> > type of use.
> >
> > Such use of the tag is incorrect, and a better tagging for these
> situations
> > needs to be defined.
> >
> >
> > I guess I am looking for a better definition which can be implemented
> > without much hustle.
> >
> > E.g. replace landuse=village_green with landuse=decorative (defaut
> > rendering=greenish) then add landcover=scrub|trees|bushes|sand|gravel as
> > needed.
> >
> > If rendering of these landcover values could be foreseen in the near
> future,
> > retagging can be expected and a lot of fake orchards, mini-forests and
> fak
> > village_greens would disappear from Nederland.
> >
> >
> > 2018-06-05 6:48 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 4 Jun 2018, 23:50 by pelder...@gmail.com:
> >>
> >>
> >> Problem is, landcover is not rendered. Nobody is going to retag for
> >> notrendered. Probably never going to change.
> >>
> >> Using landcover (probably in addition to rendered tags) increases chance
> >> that
> >> it will be rendered by at least some.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Tagging mailing list
> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Vr gr Peter Elderson
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Marc Gemis]

From previous discussions on this topic I learned that there are
several groups with different ideas about the tagging (see the Dutch
forum, as well as in the archives of this mailing list, the help
website and the General-topic on the forum)

The groups I see

- people that use landuse=grass, landuse=forest/wood, natural=scrub
since it renders
- people that use landcover=... (and don't care about empty spots on the map)
- people that  use landuse=village_green since it renders
- people that map it as leisure=garden
- some Dutch people invented a new tag, something like "public:green=yes" or so
- and in this thread I learned that some will use man_made=flowerbed
or man_made="something green".

there are pro's and con's for all those approaches and I don't see the
community coming to consensus soon. It would make a nice topic for
workshop on SOTM :-)

regards


m

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> landuse=village_green is used a lot. That works fine for grass-covered
> areas, because it's rendered green, but it misinterprets the term
> village_green and we're still stuck with the scrub, forest, orchard and
> hedge type greenery areas. The wiki for village_green says:
>
> This tag is very often not used to map the distinctive part of a village
> centre as described above, but to map all kinds of mixed vegetation (plants,
> bushes, flowers, small trees, grass), mostly in urban areas, very often
> maintained by the Municipality. See the photos on the talk page for this
> type of use.
>
> Such use of the tag is incorrect, and a better tagging for these situations
> needs to be defined.
>
>
> I guess I am looking for a better definition which can be implemented
> without much hustle.
>
> E.g. replace landuse=village_green with landuse=decorative (defaut
> rendering=greenish) then add landcover=scrub|trees|bushes|sand|gravel as
> needed.
>
> If rendering of these landcover values could be foreseen in the near future,
> retagging can be expected and a lot of fake orchards, mini-forests and fak
> village_greens would disappear from Nederland.
>
>
> 2018-06-05 6:48 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 4 Jun 2018, 23:50 by pelder...@gmail.com:
>>
>>
>> Problem is, landcover is not rendered. Nobody is going to retag for
>> notrendered. Probably never going to change.
>>
>> Using landcover (probably in addition to rendered tags) increases chance
>> that
>> it will be rendered by at least some.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Peter Elderson]

landuse=village_green is used a lot. That works fine for grass-covered
areas, because it's rendered green, but it misinterprets the term
village_green and we're still stuck with the scrub, forest, orchard and
hedge type greenery areas. The wiki for village_green says:

*This tag is very often not used to map the distinctive part of a village
centre as described above, but to map all kinds of mixed vegetation
(plants, bushes, flowers, small trees, grass), mostly in urban areas, very
often maintained by the Municipality. See the photos on the talk page for
this type of use.*

*Such use of the tag is incorrect, and a better tagging for these
situations needs to be defined.*


I guess I am looking for a better definition which can be implemented
without much hustle.

E.g. replace landuse=village_green with landuse=decorative (defaut
rendering=greenish) then add landcover=scrub|trees|bushes|sand|gravel as
needed.

If rendering of these landcover values could be foreseen in the near
future, retagging can be expected and a lot of fake orchards, mini-forests
and fak village_greens would disappear from Nederland.

2018-06-05 6:48 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

>
>
>
> 4 Jun 2018, 23:50 by pelder...@gmail.com:
>
>
> Problem is, landcover is not rendered. Nobody is going to retag for
> notrendered. Probably never going to change.
>
> Using landcover (probably in addition to rendered tags) increases chance
> that
> it will be rendered by at least some.
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

4 Jun 2018, 23:50 by pelder...@gmail.com:

>
> Problem is, landcover is not rendered. Nobody is going to retag for 
> notrendered. Probably never going to change.
>
Using landcover (probably in addition to rendered tags) increases chance that
it will be rendered by at least some.

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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Peter Elderson  wrote:

>
>
> Problem is, landcover is not rendered. Nobody is going to retag for
> notrendered. Probably never going to change.
>

I just checked, since I see grass rendered where I mapped it.  When I ask
iD for grass it gives me landuse=grass.
Whether or not that is considered valid, that's what iD gives me for grass
and it gets rendered.  Hmmm, since it
is maintained, and the intention is that it be grass, I think it's just
about arguable that it is landuse.  YMMV.

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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Peter Elderson]

Op ma 4 jun. 2018 om 23:30 schreef Paul Allen 

> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:11 PM, Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
>
>> No need to tag the operator, it's just how it's collectively known here.
>> In fact nobody knows or cares who actually takes care of it, as long as it
>> is kept tidy by people in safety vests leaning on gardening gear and
>> operating loud chainsawlike machines. People feel that using all kinds of
>> different landuses for this, as now happens, is not right, when it’s
>> actually one type of landuse with different landcover types.
>>
>> In which case you're not really asking how to tag municipal greenery,
> just how to tag greenery that isn't in people's
> gardens.  I'd still say use descriptive tagging and the fact that it's not
> in somebody's garden explains what it is.  In
> fact, all that matters is what it is, not where it is.  It's green and
> might be pretty to look at. :)  That's what I've done around
> my town where there are patches of greenery, like landcover=grass,
> landcover=trees, etc.  If it's a park it's tagged as
> a park, too.
>

Problem is, landcover is not rendered. Nobody is going to retag for
notrendered. Probably never going to change.

> --
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:11 PM, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> No need to tag the operator, it's just how it's collectively known here.
> In fact nobody knows or cares who actually takes care of it, as long as it
> is kept tidy by people in safety vests leaning on gardening gear and
> operating loud chainsawlike machines. People feel that using all kinds of
> different landuses for this, as now happens, is not right, when it’s
> actually one type of landuse with different landcover types.
>
> In which case you're not really asking how to tag municipal greenery, just
how to tag greenery that isn't in people's
gardens.  I'd still say use descriptive tagging and the fact that it's not
in somebody's garden explains what it is.  In
fact, all that matters is what it is, not where it is.  It's green and
might be pretty to look at. :)  That's what I've done around
my town where there are patches of greenery, like landcover=grass,
landcover=trees, etc.  If it's a park it's tagged as
a park, too.

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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Peter Elderson]

No need to tag the operator, it's just how it's collectively known here. In 
fact nobody knows or cares who actually takes care of it, as long as it is kept 
tidy by people in safety vests leaning on gardening gear and operating loud 
chainsawlike machines. People feel that using all kinds of different landuses 
for this, as now happens, is not right, when it’s actually one type of landuse 
with different landcover types.

Op ma 4 jun. 2018 22:44 schreef Paul Allen :
> Ummm, why not use existing tagging and add operator=name_of_local_authority?  
>  No need to invent a new tag
> No need to invent new values specifically to indicate it's municipal.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Paul Allen]

Ummm, why not use existing tagging and add
operator=name_of_local_authority?   No need to invent a new tag
No need to invent new values specifically to indicate it's municipal.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Peter Elderson]

They are within blanket-type landuses such a commercial, industrial,
residential.
They are not constructions like most man_made=* objects are.
More like the gazillion other landuses within the blanket types.

It's meant to replace the many small areas now marked as landuse=forest,
landuse=scrub, landuse=grass, landuse=orchard etc.
landcover=* would be used to indicate what's on it: grass, scrub,
flowerbed, mixed_vegetables :)

2018-06-02 17:11 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

>
>
> 1. Jun 2018 09:58 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:
>
> landuse=flowerbed/garden are both present.
> However if the thing changes from time to time it may be best to use a new
> value ... say landuse=decorative?
>
>
>  These are typically within other landuses,
>
> so I would use man_made=flowerbed or
>
> man_made=greenery or something
>
> like that.
>
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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

1. Jun 2018 09:58 by 61sundow...@gmail.com :


> landuse=flowerbed/garden are both present.
> However if the thing changes from time to time it may be best to use a new 
> value ... say landuse=decorative?




 These are typically within other landuses,

so I would use man_made=flowerbed or

man_made=greenery or something

like that.

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Re: [Tagging] British term for municipal greenery?

[Warin]

On 01/06/18 05:20, Peter Elderson wrote:
What would be a fitting term for municipal greenery? What I mean is 
areas ranging from a few square meters to say a 200 m^2, maybe more, 
shapes varying but certainly planned, with public maintenance, most of 
the time as decorative separator strips shielding objects from sight 
or passage, or just to fill up the land. We call that collectively 
"gemeentegroen" that is "municipal greenery", because the municipality 
owns the land and and has the flora maintained by the "greenery  
service".


Growth varies from just grass (as separator, not as park), large 
flower beds which are renewed every year, bushes, low trees which 
no-one would dare to call a forest, and mixtures. Thy might be bushes 
one year, grass with flowers next year, and cactus-fields next year 
because the mayor has visited Mexico.

Assume you trying to tag the use of the land?

landuse=flowerbed/garden are both present.
However if the thing changes from time to time it may be best to use a 
new value ... say landuse=decorative?


If you are trying to tag the land cover then

landcover=grass/flowers/shrubs/*

Note that this tag is poorly represented in the data base so it maybe 
usefull to dual tag with the misused tag natural=*


In either case you can add sub tag for operator=* .. eg name of 
council/municipality/shire


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