Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
Hi Viking, here is one for Belgium. It's on my photo website and I release it hereby in Public Domain, feel free to download it and upload it to the wiki. https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2017/2017-01-01-Dikkelvenne/i-5MQMcZ3/A On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 7:27 PM Viking wrote: > > I've fixed fire_hydrant:diameter legend on wiki page. > > > If you ever need pictures of those signs, please contact me, I have plenty > > of them, but I have to look them up. > > Marc, and anyone that has pictures of these signs, can you give them to us, > to insert them on wiki page? > > Thank you, > Alberto > > > --- > Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
I've fixed fire_hydrant:diameter legend on wiki page. > If you ever need pictures of those signs, please contact me, I have plenty of > them, but I have to look them up. Marc, and anyone that has pictures of these signs, can you give them to us, to insert them on wiki page? Thank you, Alberto --- Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
Sorry for multiple emails... Anyway, the situation is this: 1) The water main diameter going along the street and (among other things) feed hydrants => fire_hydrant:diameter, according to the original meaning of this tag. It is generally acquired from signboards. 2) The water connecting pipe between the water main and the hydrant => there is not a tag for this 3) The hydrant couplings where firefighters connect their equipment. => couplings:diameters, as documented on fire hydrant wiki page. When I rewrote fire hydrant page, I did an error: I confused (1) and (2), because here in Italy, water main diameter (1) is not reported anywhere (nor on signboard nor on hydrant). So I propose to rewrite fire_hydrant:diameter definition, removing references to (2) and simultaneously I will delete all fire_hydrant:diameter tags that I added, because all of them contain wrong data. Best regards, Alberto --- Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
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Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
It should be said that internal diameter physically change over time and operational status of pipes. Nominal diameter is theoretical value that is expressed in precise pressure and temperature conditions and true at anytime. It should be used on OSM since we prefer static data and +1 with Martin "it's written on it". All the best François Le ven. 25 janv. 2019 à 11:07, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > > > Am Fr., 25. Jan. 2019 um 10:55 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis < > marc.ge...@gmail.com>: > >> Perhaps it's my fault, I just found >> >> DN = Diameter Nominal. The term Diameter Nominal refers to the >> internaldiameter of a pipe. > > > > it refers to the nominal diameter, which corrisponds roughly to the > internal diameter, but not exactly. You could look up the exact > measurements in the standards which describe the thing, if you know which > standard applies (for which use the pipe is standardized). > > In OSM we should use the term "nominal diameter" or "DN" and not "internal > diameter", because this is easy to find out (is written on it). > > Cheers, > Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
Am Fr., 25. Jan. 2019 um 10:55 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis : > Perhaps it's my fault, I just found > > DN = Diameter Nominal. The term Diameter Nominal refers to the > internaldiameter of a pipe. it refers to the nominal diameter, which corrisponds roughly to the internal diameter, but not exactly. You could look up the exact measurements in the standards which describe the thing, if you know which standard applies (for which use the pipe is standardized). In OSM we should use the term "nominal diameter" or "DN" and not "internal diameter", because this is easy to find out (is written on it). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
Perhaps it's my fault, I just found DN = Diameter Nominal. The term Diameter Nominal refers to the internaldiameter of a pipe. Together with the nominal pressure rating and the materials class, all dimensions of a piping line, e. g. flange dimensions, are defined by indicating the nominal diameter. Steel is often not specified, but assumed as material. So perhaps I should have translated binnendiameter to "internaldiameter" ? m. On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 10:41 AM François Lacombe wrote: > > Hi Marc > > Le ven. 25 janv. 2019 à 09:07, Marc Gemis a écrit : >> >> In Belgium it is the inner diameter of the water main. Lowest value >> I've seen is 50, highest 400 or so. > > > Are you sure it's the inner diameter instead of the nominal diameter? > They're not always equals > > ISO 6708 defines the nominal diameter (DN) and it is way more used in > plumbing than the internal one. > https://www.techstreet.com/standards/din-en-iso-6708?product_id=1072836 > > OSM diameter=* regards the nominal diameter > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:diameter > > All the best > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
Hi Marc Le ven. 25 janv. 2019 à 09:07, Marc Gemis a écrit : > In Belgium it is the inner diameter of the water main. Lowest value > I've seen is 50, highest 400 or so. > Are you sure it's the inner diameter instead of the nominal diameter? They're not always equals ISO 6708 defines the nominal diameter (DN) and it is way more used in plumbing than the internal one. https://www.techstreet.com/standards/din-en-iso-6708?product_id=1072836 OSM diameter=* regards the nominal diameter https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:diameter All the best ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
In Belgium it is the inner diameter of the water main. Lowest value I've seen is 50, highest 400 or so. It's nicely explained on http://brandweerbrasschaat.be/site/content/hydranten (in Dutch) with pictures of the signs. The small ref number in the upper right corner is not always there. If you ever need pictures of those signs, please contact me, I have plenty of them, but I have to look them up. m. p.s. the current JOSM preset & associated validation gives warnings for 90, which is not uncommon here. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
Hi Viking, Good question, here is the situation in many French places. As Paul mentioned for British hydrants, it is now mandatory to put signs next to hydrants in French also. The roll out of such began in Paris : https://twitter.com/InfosReseaux/status/1061630374328131585 The displayed diameter is the diameter of the water main feeding the hydrant (the big water main going along the street, not the hydrant connecting pipe). I already found diameters like 900mm displayed on such signs. Manufacturers of hydrants like Bayard or Pont a Mousson also display a diameter on the hydrant itself (molded or painted) It corresponds to the hydrant connecting pipe diameter and may often differ from the diameter displayed on the signs next to it. Hydrants data models normalised in France for emergency and rescue services includes the second one, not the water main diameter. => I choose this one for fire_hydrant:diameter Le jeu. 24 janv. 2019 à 19:36, Paul Allen a écrit : > Note that the diameter on the sign is of the water main, *not* the > hydrant coupling. That is > standardized at 64mm (2.5 inch) across the UK. > Let's make it even more clearer, I see at least 3 possible diameter regarding a given fire hydrant : - The water main diameter going along the street and (among other things) feed hydrants (going from DN50 to DN1200 in France) - The water connecting pipe between the water main and the hydrant (normalised at DN100 in France) - The hydrant couplings where firefighters connect their equipment. (normalised at DN80 in France if I remember well) All the best François ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 at 18:04, Viking wrote: > Hello, > as pointed out here [1], we need to clarify the meaning of > fire_hydrant:diameter=*. > [...] > Which diameter is instead reported on the signboard in other countries? In the UK, the yellow "H" sign indicates two numbers. Upper number is the diameter of the water main in millimetres, lower number distance to the hydrant in metres. Older signage used inches and feet, respectively (no ambiguity because if you see a diameter of 6 it's inches and if you see 150 it's mm). See http://metricviews.org.uk/2012/05/fire-hydrant-signs-a-successful-metric-conversion/ Note that the diameter on the sign is of the water main, *not* the hydrant coupling. That is standardized at 64mm (2.5 inch) across the UK. The standarization became a legal requirement many years ago after a fire crew from another area turned up and couldn't connect to the hydrant. See https://www.fireprotectiononline.co.uk/info/stand-pipe-standard-size/ For what a few other countries do, you can get info about some of them from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant After that, you'll have to google around, like I just did for the UK And should we put this data in fire_hydrant:diameter? > > [1] > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:emergency%3Dfire_hydrant#Clarification_of_diameter > Your guess is as good as mine. You'll have to see what other countries do before you can figure out which of water main diameter and coupling diameter are useful. Looking at the page, there's already a tag for coupling diameter, so it looks like fire_hydrant:diameter must originally have been intended for the diameter of the water main. Water main diameter is marked on signage in the UK and Australia but not in the US, where a colour code indicates the water pressure. I think you have some work ahead of you to come up with tagging that covers everything, and even more work to document it clearly. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
