Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
Some state parks in Tennessee have bridle trails that are horse-only, no pedestrians or wheeled vehicles allowed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On August 20, 2015 10:59:54 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 8:05 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Go to rich neighborhoods in San Diego. OK, so we're seeing a trend that at least in the US, it's something that's primarily an issue for southwestern California. -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
On Wed Aug 19 18:36:05 2015 GMT+0100, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Note that it afffects also highway=path - in that case some/many people are convinced that there is some kind of difference of implied quality between highway=path and highway=footway. I tend to see the distinction as this: It depends where you are. highway=bridleway foot=no bicycle=no horse=designated motor_vehicle=no In the UK a bridleway is also for foot and bicycles. Although you usually need a trail or mountain bike to cycle on one. highway=footway foot=designated bicycle=no horse=no motor_vehicle=no highway=cycleway foot=no bicycle=designated horse=no motor_vehicle=no Again in the UK you can walk on a cycleway, but not in Germany. highway=path foot=yes bicycle=yes horse=yes motor_vehicle=no Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 2:52 PM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Wed Aug 19 18:36:05 2015 GMT+0100, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Note that it afffects also highway=path - in that case some/many people are convinced that there is some kind of difference of implied quality between highway=path and highway=footway. I tend to see the distinction as this: It depends where you are. highway=bridleway foot=no bicycle=no horse=designated motor_vehicle=no In the UK a bridleway is also for foot and bicycles. Although you usually need a trail or mountain bike to cycle on one. It's an exceptionally rare feature in the US so it's not something I've regularly tagged yet. Only ones I can recall *ever* seeing in my life are mostly in Los Angeles County (of all places), with another (which is definitely closed to bikes) in Riverside County parallel to the Pacific Electric Cycleway. highway=footway foot=designated bicycle=no horse=no motor_vehicle=no highway=cycleway foot=no bicycle=designated horse=no motor_vehicle=no Again in the UK you can walk on a cycleway, but not in Germany. Because this is such a confusing situation, I try to always explicitly tag modes on motorway, path and cycleway, and unusual features like bicycle=yes on footways and sidewalks. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
Mateusz Konieczny wrote: quality. In area with poor infrastructure road forming main road network, of the highest importance in region should be tagged highway=trunk - no matter whatever is is high-quality asphalt road or unsurfaced tract unusable after major rains. I generally agree on all the points you mentioned, but I had to mention two points to this, one on a detail and the second on what is it that the text should or shouldn't try to convey to the readers. 1) I'd say that since trunk is the next best thing below motorway, in any country (or region) there has to be something between motorway standards and unsurfaced tract unusable after major rains - primary is a valid long distance road, too. I'm not even saying a trunk road could't be unpaved, or that it couldn't be repeatedly blocked sometimes. I did ask on the wiki highway=trunk tag discussion page in 2009 whether anyone knows any roads marked as trunk in osm which are unpaved, and only later read somewhere that south of Sahara most trunk roads are unpaved, but in that discussion there was no mention of whether they are (generally) usable after major rains. I would however be confident enough to assume that no country, no matter how underprivileged, doesn't have some longer distance roads that are traversable after and during common adverse conditions; then if other long distance roads are not equal, they'd be a step down from that trunk level, even it the better roads do not cover the whole country. This can, however, possibly, clash with countries' own osm tagging guidelines if they only use some administrative class as the base for what is a trunk and what isn't - I don't know enough details about all the countries. Does anyone have examples? 2) This gets a little philosophical, because it's about what makes a road a road. It's somewhat misleading to write that the highway tag doesn't say _anything_ about the quality, when it's easily read as doesn't say anything about the physical properties - a road is, IMO, by definition something that looks like a road and works like a road (and in western world necessarily also: built as a road), not any strip of land where somebody once drove through, so it does describe the limits of what the physical properties can be expected to be, i.e. the list of worst possible attributes that it needs to fulfill for people call it a road. At the moment, I don't have a ready sentence to add, but it's worth noting that the concept of a road includes both usage and physical appearance. -- alv ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
2015-08-19 9:11 GMT+02:00 Lauri Kytömaa lkyto...@gmail.com: 1) I'd say that since trunk is the next best thing below motorway, in any country (or region) there has to be something between motorway standards and unsurfaced tract unusable after major rains - primary is a valid long distance road, too. I'm not even saying a trunk road could't be unpaved, or that it couldn't be repeatedly blocked sometimes. I did ask on the wiki highway=trunk tag discussion page in 2009 whether anyone knows any roads marked as trunk in osm which are unpaved, and only later read somewhere that south of Sahara most trunk roads are unpaved, but in that discussion there was no mention of whether they are (generally) usable after major rains. OK, I will change it to primary to make it more consistent with reral usage and add and highway=trunk quality in one region may be worse than highway=tertiary in another. 2) This gets a little philosophical, because it's about what makes a road a road. It's somewhat misleading to write that the highway tag doesn't say _anything_ about the quality, when it's easily read as doesn't say anything about the physical properties - a road is, IMO, by definition something that looks like a road and works like a road (and in western world necessarily also: built as a road), not any strip of land where somebody once drove through, so it does describe the limits of what the physical properties can be expected to be, i.e. the list of worst possible attributes that it needs to fulfill for people call it a road. At the moment, I don't have a ready sentence to add, but it's worth noting that the concept of a road includes both usage and physical appearance. Yes, for example Curiosity tracks on Mars would not qualify as highway=trunk :) I think that it is already handled by defining trunk to service as road. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
I am planning on adding this information to wiki in near future. Note that it afffects also highway=path - in that case some/many people are convinced that there is some kind of difference of implied quality between highway=path and highway=footway. highway=path wiki page already contains information that highway=path may have any type of surface 2015-08-12 10:56 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: What is below is supposed to document existing consensus rather than introduce new rule. I am aware that there is significant majority convinced that some road types universally guarantee or imply certain values (like widespread usage of highway=track to mark all unpaved roads and only unpaved roads, popular in some regions). I am also aware that in some regions dual carriageways are usually at least highway=tertiary, paved roads are at least highway=unclassified, highway=primary has at least 2 lanes in each direction or paved roads passable for the entire year are highway=trunk are good approximations - but it does not make it universally true or necessary requirement to use these tags. proposed description to be added on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway - maybe also on pages about individual road types. Only highway=motorway/motorway_link implies anything about quality. Other road types, from highway=trunk through highway=tertiary to highway=residential=residential/service or highway=path/footway/cycleway/track do not imply anything about road quality. In area with poor infrastructure road forming main road network, of the highest importance in region should be tagged highway=trunk - no matter whatever is is high-quality asphalt road or unsurfaced tract unusable after major rains. In absence of surface, tracktype and other tags describing quality of road one may try to extrapolate this information from value of highway tag. Note that this needs tuning for every region. Typical highway=primary may be drastically different in various places across the planet. It is highly recommended to add and use tags describing road quality like surface. In one region it may be obvious that all highway=tertiary are paved and highway=track unpaved but no assumption like that will work worldwide. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
I mean their country or region's wiki page Like http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Japan_tagging Javbw On Aug 13, 2015, at 2:16 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Highway:International equivalence for how ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
I agree that highway=* can't imply quality globally, but it is documented country by country how to tag certain types of roads, especially when there are enough types of roads to need all the definitions of highway=*. Japan's tagging page defines all the values and relates them to their region's system, from motorway through path. I imagine each country or region has a how-to guide as well to translate local conditions into basic highway=* types. Perhaps mentioning after this addition that a mapper should refer to their local tagging documentation in the wiki for a region, or ask a nearby mapper for pointers if they have a question. Like I pester you guys about. ^_^ Javbw On Aug 12, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: What is below is supposed to document existing consensus rather than introduce new rule. I am aware that there is significant majority convinced that some road types universally guarantee or imply certain values (like widespread usage of highway=track to mark all unpaved roads and only unpaved roads, popular in some regions). I am also aware that in some regions dual carriageways are usually at least highway=tertiary, paved roads are at least highway=unclassified, highway=primary has at least 2 lanes in each direction or paved roads passable for the entire year are highway=trunk are good approximations - but it does not make it universally true or necessary requirement to use these tags. proposed description to be added on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway - maybe also on pages about individual road types. Only highway=motorway/motorway_link implies anything about quality. Other road types, from highway=trunk through highway=tertiary to highway=residential=residential/service or highway=path/footway/cycleway/track do not imply anything about road quality. In area with poor infrastructure road forming main road network, of the highest importance in region should be tagged highway=trunk - no matter whatever is is high-quality asphalt road or unsurfaced tract unusable after major rains. In absence of surface, tracktype and other tags describing quality of road one may try to extrapolate this information from value of highway tag. Note that this needs tuning for every region. Typical highway=primary may be drastically different in various places across the planet. It is highly recommended to add and use tags describing road quality like surface. In one region it may be obvious that all highway=tertiary are paved and highway=track unpaved but no assumption like that will work worldwide. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
On 8/12/15 8:35 AM, John Willis wrote: I agree that highway=* can't imply quality globally, but it is documented country by country how to tag certain types of roads, especially when there are enough types of roads to need all the definitions of highway=*. Japan's tagging page defines all the values and relates them to their region's system, from motorway through path. I imagine each country or region has a how-to guide as well to translate local conditions into basic highway=* types. Perhaps mentioning after this addition that a mapper should refer to their local tagging documentation in the wiki for a region, or ask a nearby mapper for pointers if they have a question. the highway= tag already has problems with severe overloading of meaning in many countries. overloading quality on top of all the other issues does not seem like a winning plan to me. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)
johnw wrote: Perhaps mentioning after this addition that a mapper should refer to their local tagging documentation in the wiki It already says that: The highway type helps indicate the importance of the highway within the road network as a whole... See Highway:International equivalence for how different countries apply these tags to their own road networks. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Describe-explicitly-that-values-of-highway-tag-do-not-imply-anything-about-road-quality-except-highw-tp5852157p5852197.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
