Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Erkin Alp Güney]

No, I have expanded it to cover all educational institutions now,
primary focus being separating cram schools, as cram schools are usually
not allowed to award a diploma and they should not be listed when
searched for other education institutions.


20-11-2017 14:19 tarihinde Marc Gemis yazdı:
> What is the difference with the rejected Education 2.0 proposal from
> 2016 ? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Education_2.0
>
> Aren't we repeating all the arguments again ?
>
> m.
>


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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Marc Gemis]

What is the difference with the rejected Education 2.0 proposal from
2016 ? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Education_2.0

Aren't we repeating all the arguments again ?

m.

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> 2017-11-20 11:04 GMT+01:00 Erkin Alp Güney :
>>
>>
>> > What about dance / music (singing / instruments, ...) / schools?
>> > Academies? Conservatories? Professional schools?
>> education=specialty
>
>
>
> I'm not convinced. Why is there an education=driving or administrative, but
> an academy of fine arts (similar to a university) or conservatory (might be
> similar to a university) go into the same category as a dance school (could
> be several levels, from the hobbyist leisure dance school to professional
> preparation) or the music school kids go 1 time a week? This seems complete
> arbitrary.
> IMHO a good proposal should not need a "catch-all" tag for the rest (i.e.
> what wasn't thought of earlier) which basically shifts meaningful tagging
> into a subtag. If we already undertake the step to create a new top level
> key just for education, all cases should fit into the same scheme (i.e. if
> there is education=driving, there should also be education=dancing or
> education=gliding, but this would mean "education" is about the topic, and
> not about the level which would be implied by terms like "university" or
> "graduate" or "vocational").
>
> It should be clear, what the meaning of the "education" tags is (kind of
> classification/criterion). Level of education? Field of studies? Then there
> should be subtags with distinct meaning that cater each for a property
> (which must be isolated/defined).
>
> I would also expect suggestions for several more details that aren't covered
> yet, e.g. male, female / both-(etc.), mixed age classes or not or maybe even
> both (e.g. relevant for kindergarten), etc.
>
>
> What about the kind of specialization for general-education (e.g. classical
> education (latin and greek), scientific, artistic, etc.)?
>
> There's not much about a rationale, e.g. what do you consider "all
> educational facilities/institutions" and based on which criterion? E.g. what
> about a shooting club, aren't people going there to learn how to safely
> handle a gun, and how to use it / improve their ability? Similar things can
> be said about a lot of clubs / associations. When does it fall under
> "education"? This ambiguity together with instances like "university" (not
> just education) are the reason it could be generally worth to question a
> restructuring under a new "education" key according to this criterion.
>
>
>
>>
>> > Subtags how to tag the specialization (if any), about the degress you
>> > can get, institutes and faculties, etc.).
>> These tags already exist. Institutes and faculties are now covered in
>> "how to tag universities and mixed campuses" section of the proposal.
>
>
>
> it may be my cultural background, but I would not use the term "school" for
> parts of a university.
> The new relation type=institution remains mysterious, there are 7 instances
> of it in the db, but no documentation whatsoever. Is this a kind of
> "collection"? Can't we use a standard relation like "multipolygon" or "site"
> (ok, there's the common problem with universities that they have many
> different locations, often even single faculties have different locations,
> and it would be desirable to have a method to connect e.g. 2 site relations
> to one entity, I think sometimes we are doing this with operator and name
> tags, but it is not very reliable or consistent, something should indeed be
> introduced). Is "institution" only used for educational features? It would
> probably merit a whole new proposal.
> If college is "obsolete", does this mean colleges should be tagged as
> universities?
>
> What about police schools, or military schools? Are those handled with a
> "military" (e.g.) property on a university or vocational school element, or
> are they new main values?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-11-20 11:04 GMT+01:00 Erkin Alp Güney :

>
> > What about dance / music (singing / instruments, ...) / schools?
> > Academies? Conservatories? Professional schools?
> education=specialty
>


I'm not convinced. Why is there an education=driving or administrative, but
an academy of fine arts (similar to a university) or conservatory (might be
similar to a university) go into the same category as a dance school (could
be several levels, from the hobbyist leisure dance school to professional
preparation) or the music school kids go 1 time a week? This seems complete
arbitrary.
IMHO a good proposal should not need a "catch-all" tag for the rest (i.e.
what wasn't thought of earlier) which basically shifts meaningful tagging
into a subtag. If we already undertake the step to create a new top level
key just for education, all cases should fit into the same scheme (i.e. if
there is education=driving, there should also be education=dancing or
education=gliding, but this would mean "education" is about the topic, and
not about the level which would be implied by terms like "university" or
"graduate" or "vocational").

It should be clear, what the meaning of the "education" tags is (kind of
classification/criterion). Level of education? Field of studies? Then there
should be subtags with distinct meaning that cater each for a property
(which must be isolated/defined).

I would also expect suggestions for several more details that aren't
covered yet, e.g. male, female / both-(etc.), mixed age classes or not or
maybe even both (e.g. relevant for kindergarten), etc.


What about the kind of specialization for general-education (e.g. classical
education (latin and greek), scientific, artistic, etc.)?

There's not much about a rationale, e.g. what do you consider "all
educational facilities/institutions" and based on which criterion? E.g.
what about a shooting club, aren't people going there to learn how to
safely handle a gun, and how to use it / improve their ability? Similar
things can be said about a lot of clubs / associations. When does it fall
under "education"? This ambiguity together with instances like "university"
(not just education) are the reason it could be generally worth to question
a restructuring under a new "education" key according to this criterion.




> > Subtags how to tag the specialization (if any), about the degress you
> > can get, institutes and faculties, etc.).
> These tags already exist. Institutes and faculties are now covered in
> "how to tag universities and mixed campuses" section of the proposal.



it may be my cultural background, but I would not use the term "school" for
parts of a university.
The new relation type=institution remains mysterious, there are 7 instances
of it in the db, but no documentation whatsoever. Is this a kind of
"collection"? Can't we use a standard relation like "multipolygon" or
"site" (ok, there's the common problem with universities that they have
many different locations, often even single faculties have different
locations, and it would be desirable to have a method to connect e.g. 2
site relations to one entity, I think sometimes we are doing this with
operator and name tags, but it is not very reliable or consistent,
something should indeed be introduced). Is "institution" only used for
educational features? It would probably merit a whole new proposal.
If college is "obsolete", does this mean colleges should be tagged as
universities?

What about police schools, or military schools? Are those handled with a
"military" (e.g.) property on a university or vocational school element, or
are they new main values?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Erkin Alp Güney]

> What about dance / music (singing / instruments, ...) / schools?
> Academies? Conservatories? Professional schools?
education=specialty
> Subtags how to tag the specialization (if any), about the degress you
> can get, institutes and faculties, etc.).
These tags already exist. Institutes and faculties are now covered in
"how to tag universities and mixed campuses" section of the proposal.

Yours, faithfully
Erkin Alp

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-11-19 12:19 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> While I'm a bit undecided on if we need an education reform at all and
> you need to make clear what the voting is actually on, the underlying
> proposal is far from ready for any kind of vote or usage at this point
> in time.
>


I agree with all points.



> You need to at least provide a reasonably thorough treatment of how
> existing tagging should be mapped to your new scheme and give some
> rationale why you are lumping in non-educational facilities (see
> educational=nursery).



+1, I don't see a need to deprecate amenity=university or school or the
other existing and well used tags, but neither do I see benefit from double
tagging these (if the tags convey the same meaning). Also the term
"education" doesn't really fit with (childcare), nursery, (daycare),
crèche, etc. and is incomplete for universities because a significant part
of unis is research.

The proposed values are incomplete and mix orthogonal "classes" (e.g.
"administrative" = field of endeavor same key as school / university =
level of education) (e.g. what happens to "college", are these kept or
merged into "university"? What about dance / music (singing / instruments,
...) / schools? Academies? Conservatories? Professional schools? Subtags
how to tag the specialization (if any), about the degress you can get,
institutes and faculties, etc.).

Maybe not all of this is needed in this proposal, but if we're to redesign
things I would want to integrate at least what we can already now see is
missing (or not documented well). Currentlly you don't suggest more than
regrouping a selection of related things (with already established tags)
under a new education key.

I would also reword the parts which suggest the function tags should be
applied to "buildings" (these can be applied to nodes or areas or other
objects (sites, etc.), including but not limited to areas that are defined
by a single building outline).

As Simon has written, there's some work missing to get this to a point
where it can be voted.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Erkin Alp Güney]

They prepare for academic exams but a cram school's purpose of existence
is not actual academic education. They do not teach, they cram, just as
their name implies. They employ various preparation for multiple-choice
or other tests and memorization techniques for "mastering" these tests.
A language school is a cram school if it is focused solely on exam
preparation(education=cram-school), it is not if properly teaches the
language(education=specialty). Schools providing occupational
certification with no government recognition or title should also be
considered cram schools, because they lack actual academic objective.
How do I know this? I have attended multiple cram schools for
approximately ten years whilst having compulsory formal education in
regular schools. Specialty schools, on the other hand, have actual
academic objectives on the subject they teach.


19-11-2017 15:03 tarihinde José G Moya Y. yazdı:
> You are right, I meaned *specialty schools*. Somehow I mixed lines in
> my copt-paste.
>
> But the definition, as it appears in the proposal, keeps being
> confusing, since you include "exam preparation but not cramming" into
> specialty schools. Cramming is some kind of exam preparation, so maybe
> you should say something like "preparation for speciality exams".
>
> I understand you say that speciality schools include (but are not
> limited to) schools that prepare for professional exam (such as
> Spanish goverment "oposiciones", Microsoft Certification, American
> TOEFL... ). 
> On the other hand, cram schools prepare for academic exams (access to
> higschool, university or college). 
> Am I right this time? 
>
> I think that adding more examples to your proposal would be nice.
>
> El 19/11/2017 7:34, "Erkin Alp Güney"  > escribió:
>
> You have conflated test centers and specialty schools. Test
> centers, as
> in my proposal, focus exclusively on _performing_ the standardised
> tests. I do not know where in the world we have these, but we have a
> government-operated one in Ankara, Turkey (ÖSYM computer-based
> examination building). Cram schools, on the other hand, cram something
> or prepare for an exam without having an academic objective otherwise.
> Specialty schools are what the name says.
>
>
> 19-11-2017 01:52 tarihinde Steve Doerr yazdı:
> > On 18/11/2017 22:31, José G Moya Y. wrote:
> >> The proposal says:
> >>
> >>     education=testcenter -
> >>
> >
> > If it does, then it needs to be adapted to the convention of using
> > British English spelling: the 'center' bit should be 'centre'. And I
> > can't imagine anyone in the UK writing 'testcentre' as a single
> word.
> > I think it would normally be 'test centre', so the tag value
> should be
> > test_centre.
> >
> > --
> > Steve
>
Yours, faithfully
Erkin Alp

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Yves]

I think a bit like Simon and Christoph, but if the goal is to vote on the 
opportunity of a reform, I'd stay open about the final scheme. 
Yves 

Le 19 novembre 2017 12:19:48 GMT+01:00, Simon Poole  a écrit :
>
>[Christoph pressed send before I did, sigh]
>
>While I'm a bit undecided on if we need an education reform at all and
>you need to make clear what the voting is actually on, the underlying
>proposal is far from ready for any kind of vote or usage at this point
>in time.
>
>You need to at least provide a reasonably thorough treatment of how
>existing tagging should be mapped to your new scheme and give some
>rationale why you are lumping in non-educational facilities (see
>educational=nursery).
>
>Simon
>
>
>Am 18.11.2017 um 19:05 schrieb Erkin Alp Güney:
>> I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since
>last
>> month.
>>
>> Yours, faithfully
>> Erkin Alp
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[José G Moya Y .]

You are right, I meaned *specialty schools*. Somehow I mixed lines in my
copt-paste.

But the definition, as it appears in the proposal, keeps being confusing,
since you include "exam preparation but not cramming" into specialty
schools. Cramming is some kind of exam preparation, so maybe you should say
something like "preparation for speciality exams".

I understand you say that speciality schools include (but are not limited
to) schools that prepare for professional exam (such as Spanish goverment
"oposiciones", Microsoft Certification, American TOEFL... ).
On the other hand, cram schools prepare for academic exams (access to
higschool, university or college).
Am I right this time?

I think that adding more examples to your proposal would be nice.







El 19/11/2017 7:34, "Erkin Alp Güney"  escribió:

You have conflated test centers and specialty schools. Test centers, as
in my proposal, focus exclusively on _performing_ the standardised
tests. I do not know where in the world we have these, but we have a
government-operated one in Ankara, Turkey (ÖSYM computer-based
examination building). Cram schools, on the other hand, cram something
or prepare for an exam without having an academic objective otherwise.
Specialty schools are what the name says.


19-11-2017 01:52 tarihinde Steve Doerr yazdı:
> On 18/11/2017 22:31, José G Moya Y. wrote:
>> The proposal says:
>>
>> education=testcenter -
>>
>
> If it does, then it needs to be adapted to the convention of using
> British English spelling: the 'center' bit should be 'centre'. And I
> can't imagine anyone in the UK writing 'testcentre' as a single word.
> I think it would normally be 'test centre', so the tag value should be
> test_centre.
>
> --
> Steve
>
> 
>   Virus-free. www.avast.com
> 
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Simon Poole]

[Christoph pressed send before I did, sigh]

While I'm a bit undecided on if we need an education reform at all and
you need to make clear what the voting is actually on, the underlying
proposal is far from ready for any kind of vote or usage at this point
in time.

You need to at least provide a reasonably thorough treatment of how
existing tagging should be mapped to your new scheme and give some
rationale why you are lumping in non-educational facilities (see
educational=nursery).

Simon


Am 18.11.2017 um 19:05 schrieb Erkin Alp Güney:
> I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since last
> month.
>
> Yours, faithfully
> Erkin Alp
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 18 November 2017, Erkin Alp Gc3bcney wrote:
> I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since
> last month.

I just had a look over your draft and i like your approach although as 
others have said it is not quite clear why the change is needed for 
many established, well defined and undisputed tags like 
amenity=university.

But at the moment it is not quite clear to me which part people are 
supposed to vote on - i.e. the "Vote on idea of an educational reform" 
part or the "Vote on the proposal".

In case of the latter i think it would be good to elaborate on the list 
of values and provide an equality diagram for the new tags and existing 
educational amenity=* tags - like is education=school equivalent in 
meaning to amenity=school or should some existing amenity=school get a 
different tag.  It would also be good to provide a clear 'upgrade path' 
to all widely used educational amenity tags - in particular 
amenity=college seems to be currently not covered by your proposal.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Erkin Alp Güney]

That school is non-religious for OSM tagging purposes.


19-11-2017 01:31 tarihinde José G Moya Y. yazdı:
> Also, a note about
> optional  religion =*
>
> In Spain the government pays some religious institutions for giving
> educational services to people for free. 
> This leads to strange situations like islamic people bringing their
> daughters to a school ruled by catholic nuns and requiring the girls
> to study a non-religious curriculum.and even allowing girls wear a
> /hijab/. Should we tag these schools as "religion=catholic" or leave
> it blank?
>  
> Regards. 
>
>
> 2017-11-18 19:06 GMT+01:00 Erkin Alp Güney  >:
>
> This version is considered for voting:
>
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative
> 
> 
>
>
Yours, faithfully
Erkin Alp


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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Erkin Alp Güney]

You have conflated test centers and specialty schools. Test centers, as
in my proposal, focus exclusively on _performing_ the standardised
tests. I do not know where in the world we have these, but we have a
government-operated one in Ankara, Turkey (ÖSYM computer-based
examination building). Cram schools, on the other hand, cram something
or prepare for an exam without having an academic objective otherwise.
Specialty schools are what the name says.


19-11-2017 01:52 tarihinde Steve Doerr yazdı:
> On 18/11/2017 22:31, José G Moya Y. wrote:
>> The proposal says:
>>
>> education=testcenter -
>>
>
> If it does, then it needs to be adapted to the convention of using
> British English spelling: the 'center' bit should be 'centre'. And I
> can't imagine anyone in the UK writing 'testcentre' as a single word.
> I think it would normally be 'test centre', so the tag value should be
> test_centre.
>
> -- 
> Steve
>
> 
>   Virus-free. www.avast.com
> 
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Steve Doerr]

On 18/11/2017 22:31, José G Moya Y. wrote:

The proposal says:

education=testcenter -



If it does, then it needs to be adapted to the convention of using 
British English spelling: the 'center' bit should be 'centre'. And I 
can't imagine anyone in the UK writing 'testcentre' as a single word. I 
think it would normally be 'test centre', so the tag value should be 
test_centre.


--
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Simon Poole]

You numbers look slightly off, wit:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=childcare


Am 18.11.2017 um 19:05 schrieb Erkin Alp Güney:
> I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since last
> month.
>
> Yours, faithfully
> Erkin Alp
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Yes, I agree, good idea

Thanks

Graeme

On 19 November 2017 at 08:31, José G Moya Y.  wrote:

> I will vote +1 because I liked your proposal in September
>
> But please refresh me, what's the difference between testcenter and
> cram-school? I only remember cram-school in your proposal this September.
>
> The proposal says:
>
> education=testcenter -  Specialty schools including exam preparation
>> schools, fine arts schools, crafts schools or language schools but
>> excluding crammers
>> education=cram-school - Cram schools, cram schools may be rendered
>> differently from academic schools
>
>
> But "exam preparation" is what crammers do, don't they?
>
> Also, a note about
> optional religion =*
> In Spain the government pays some religious institutions for giving
> educational services to people for free.
> This leads to strange situations like islamic people bringing their
> daughters to a school ruled by catholic nuns and requiring the girls to
> study a non-religious curriculum.and even allowing girls wear a *hijab*.
> Should we tag these schools as "religion=catholic" or leave it blank?
>
> Regards.
>
>
> 2017-11-18 19:06 GMT+01:00 Erkin Alp Güney :
>
>> This version is considered for voting:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Educat
>> ion_Reform_Alternative
>>
>>
>> 18-11-2017 21:05 tarihinde Erkin Alp Güney yazdı:
>> > I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since last
>> > month.
>> >
>> > Yours, faithfully
>> > Erkin Alp
>> >
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[José G Moya Y .]

I will vote +1 because I liked your proposal in September

But please refresh me, what's the difference between testcenter and
cram-school? I only remember cram-school in your proposal this September.

The proposal says:

education=testcenter -  Specialty schools including exam preparation
> schools, fine arts schools, crafts schools or language schools but
> excluding crammers
> education=cram-school - Cram schools, cram schools may be rendered
> differently from academic schools


But "exam preparation" is what crammers do, don't they?

Also, a note about
optional religion =*
In Spain the government pays some religious institutions for giving
educational services to people for free.
This leads to strange situations like islamic people bringing their
daughters to a school ruled by catholic nuns and requiring the girls to
study a non-religious curriculum.and even allowing girls wear a *hijab*.
Should we tag these schools as "religion=catholic" or leave it blank?

Regards.


2017-11-18 19:06 GMT+01:00 Erkin Alp Güney :

> This version is considered for voting:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/
> Education_Reform_Alternative
>
>
> 18-11-2017 21:05 tarihinde Erkin Alp Güney yazdı:
> > I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since last
> > month.
> >
> > Yours, faithfully
> > Erkin Alp
> >
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Erkin Alp Güney]

This version is considered for voting:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative


18-11-2017 21:05 tarihinde Erkin Alp Güney yazdı:
> I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since last
> month.
>
> Yours, faithfully
> Erkin Alp
>


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