Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 2017-03-04 um 15:02 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> mapping this kind of information (e.g. michelin star restaurants ) in a 
> structured and systematic way is likely forbidden because it means recreating 
> a (probably) proprietary db 

IMHO this is the only way who the friendliness of a POI towards
motorcyclist, cyclists etc. should be mapped at OSM because it is very
objective (just have a look at the entrance door of the POI if there is
such a label/sign or not).

Best regards

Michael

-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4 Mar 2017, at 13:50, Yves  wrote:
> 
> With signage I meant a particular signage, such as 'Recommended by the xyz 
> motorcycle club', recognized in some way and defined outside of OSM. 
> This kind of sign is rather frequent, and mapping them moves away from OSM 
> the rating temptation.



mapping this kind of information (e.g. michelin star restaurants ) in a 
structured and systematic way is likely forbidden because it means recreating a 
(probably) proprietary db 


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4 Mar 2017, at 07:24, Yves  wrote:
> 
> If there is a signage, then we should map the signage.


I don't agree that mapping the signage would be particularly helpful, besides 
there's no tag for this kind of signs, these sign objects wouldn't be connected 
to the relevant feature and would have a text in local language. 

I agree that in absence of signage the tagging would be based on personal 
experience, but if there is signage the proposed standardized tagging on the 
object it concerns would seem appropriate and helpful.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Yves]

I agree with Kenny,  that's a bit too close to a rating system. If there is a 
signage,  then we should map the signage.
I f it's a particular service offered,  then we should map the service. 
I'm particularly interested in kids friendly restaurants,  and wonder if I'll 
pass a rainy weekend mapping playgrounds in those I know. 
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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Kevin Kenny]

I think I'd chime in with the people who are saying that the tag is quite
subjective, except that I can think of a few cases where it isn't:
http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/For-hikers-no-clean-laundry-in-Kent-
4738977.php#item-38493 in particular comes to mind. But in the absence of
signage like http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/23/21/50/5052950/3/1024x1024.jpg
 or http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/7710/tj7710_062808_094103_350541.jpg,
I'd avoid placing any such tag.

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 04-Mar-17 09:59 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
>
>> On 03/03/2017 04:56 PM, Warin wrote:
>>
>>> Would I use friendly:*=no ... yes. There is one pub/fuel stop in
>>> Australia that is 'out of fuel' for motorcyclists ... but has it for
>>> cars.
>>> Definitely friendly:motorcycle=no! Very usefull to know that a
>>> motorcycle needs enough fuel to get to the next fuel stop!
>>>
>> How can this be? At least here in the US, cars and motorcycles run on
>> the same stuff.
>>
>>
> Personal bias by the operators.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Warin]

On 04-Mar-17 09:59 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 03/03/2017 04:56 PM, Warin wrote:

Would I use friendly:*=no ... yes. There is one pub/fuel stop in
Australia that is 'out of fuel' for motorcyclists ... but has it for cars.
Definitely friendly:motorcycle=no! Very usefull to know that a
motorcycle needs enough fuel to get to the next fuel stop!

How can this be? At least here in the US, cars and motorcycles run on
the same stuff.



Personal bias by the operators.


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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 03/03/2017 04:56 PM, Warin wrote:
> Would I use friendly:*=no ... yes. There is one pub/fuel stop in
> Australia that is 'out of fuel' for motorcyclists ... but has it for cars.
> Definitely friendly:motorcycle=no! Very usefull to know that a
> motorcycle needs enough fuel to get to the next fuel stop!

How can this be? At least here in the US, cars and motorcycles run on
the same stuff.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Warin]

On 03-Mar-17 09:21 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:



On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 12:50 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 03-Mar-17 09:51 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 2 Mar 2017, at 20:55, Tobias Knerr > wrote:

While it's ok to overlook minor "rule violations"
sometimes, things like not announcing the vote do clearly
have a big impact on the outcome. It's obvious to me that
the vote is invalid and needs to be repeated.


+1



>From reading the few comments on the wiki discussion page ...

It looks like this should be a property tag of "friendly:*=yes/no"

Where * could be motorcycle, hiking, bicycle etc.

Should I start a proposal along these lines?

There are presently <100 motorcycle_friendly occurrences in the
data base so replacing them would not be too much work.


This seems a tad on the subjective side rather than objective, and 
probably dependent on one's skill at navigating with the mode at hand...


One can make it objective. e.g.

=== Hiking ===
A hiker may arrive dirty, wet and tired. They appreciate somewhere to 
sit while they can see their backpack and clothing while eating in a cafe.
They may also appreciate being able to fill their water bottle before 
leaving.
At a lodging they may appreciate a drying room where their tent and 
cloths can be dried.



These are 'little things' that assist to make the trip just that much 
easier.

Some make an effort to find out what is desired too
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=1=103675

Would I use friendly:*=no ... yes. There is one pub/fuel stop in 
Australia that is 'out of fuel' for motorcyclists ... but has it for cars.
Definitely friendly:motorcycle=no! Very usefull to know that a 
motorcycle needs enough fuel to get to the next fuel stop!


It is hard to asses the 'friendliness' of a feature for an activity 
unless you are engaged in it.

However, for some (like me), it is also hard to asses a species of tree.

Bottom line: You if you cannot asses a tag don't use it.

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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 12:50 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 03-Mar-17 09:51 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 2 Mar 2017, at 20:55, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
>>>
>>> While it's ok to overlook minor "rule violations" sometimes, things like
>>> not announcing the vote do clearly have a big impact on the outcome. It's
>>> obvious to me that the vote is invalid and needs to be repeated.
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
> From reading the few comments on the wiki discussion page ...
>
> It looks like this should be a property tag of "friendly:*=yes/no"
>
> Where * could be motorcycle, hiking, bicycle etc.
>
> Should I start a proposal along these lines?
>
> There are presently <100 motorcycle_friendly occurrences in the data base
> so replacing them would not be too much work.
>
>
This seems a tad on the subjective side rather than objective, and probably
dependent on one's skill at navigating with the mode at hand...
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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Warin]

On 03-Mar-17 09:51 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 2 Mar 2017, at 20:55, Tobias Knerr  wrote:

While it's ok to overlook minor "rule violations" sometimes, things like not 
announcing the vote do clearly have a big impact on the outcome. It's obvious to me that 
the vote is invalid and needs to be repeated.


+1




From reading the few comments on the wiki discussion page ...

It looks like this should be a property tag of "friendly:*=yes/no"

Where * could be motorcycle, hiking, bicycle etc.

Should I start a proposal along these lines?

There are presently <100 motorcycle_friendly occurrences in the data base so 
replacing them would not be too much work.





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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2 Mar 2017, at 20:55, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> 
> While it's ok to overlook minor "rule violations" sometimes, things like not 
> announcing the vote do clearly have a big impact on the outcome. It's obvious 
> to me that the vote is invalid and needs to be repeated.


+1


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Warin]

On 03-Mar-17 06:55 AM, Tobias Knerr wrote:

Hi Michael,

On 02.03.2017 20:21, Michael Reichert wrote:

Because the proposal violated the guideline, I would like to
- remove the status "proposed" from its feature documentation page
- reset the status of the proposal to "RFC"
- to declare the voting as invalid by adding a note at the top of the
voting section
- add a note to the feature documentation page linking to this email and
explaining that the voting was invalid.


I agree with your observations and your proposed actions. While it's 
ok to overlook minor "rule violations" sometimes, things like not 
announcing the vote do clearly have a big impact on the outcome. It's 
obvious to me that the vote is invalid and needs to be repeated.


In addition
I would remove the status=approved from the 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcycle_friendly page.





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Re: [Tagging] Invalid voting of proposed feature motorcycle_friendly=*

[Tobias Knerr]

Hi Michael,

On 02.03.2017 20:21, Michael Reichert wrote:

Because the proposal violated the guideline, I would like to
- remove the status "proposed" from its feature documentation page
- reset the status of the proposal to "RFC"
- to declare the voting as invalid by adding a note at the top of the
voting section
- add a note to the feature documentation page linking to this email and
explaining that the voting was invalid.


I agree with your observations and your proposed actions. While it's ok 
to overlook minor "rule violations" sometimes, things like not 
announcing the vote do clearly have a big impact on the outcome. It's 
obvious to me that the vote is invalid and needs to be repeated.


Thanks a lot for your vigilance!

Tobias

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