Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 at 05:40, SelfishSeahorse 
wrote:

> In case the pool depth varies, you might want to tag min_depth and
> max_depth instead.
>
> Regarding temperature: is it more or less stable (perhaps heated pools)?
> The temperature of the outdoor swimming pools i know vary quite a bit
> during summer (usually 17-24 °C).
>
> Regards, Markus
>

Yep, our backyard pool is currently 14°C - in 3 months time, coming into
Summer, it will be ~30°!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread SelfishSeahorse 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:13 dktue,  wrote:

> I would like to tag information about the water-temperature and the
> depth of the separate pools in the outdoor-swimming pool [1]. Are there
> any suggested tag-names or should I just go with "depth" and "temperature"?
>

In case the pool depth varies, you might want to tag min_depth and
max_depth instead.

Regarding temperature: is it more or less stable (perhaps heated pools)?
The temperature of the outdoor swimming pools i know vary quite a bit
during summer (usually 17-24 °C).

Regards, Markus

>
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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Paul Allen 
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Your bodies reaction depends on what it is acclimatised to.
> If you live in a hot climate, such as Darwin Australia, you put a jumper
> on at 25 C because it is cold.
> If you live in a colder climate, such as Hobart Australia, you go swimming
> at 25 Cbecause it is warm/hot.
> Both peoples are fit and healthy yet they perceive the same temperature as
> different things.
>

Indeed.  But that is air temperature, not water temperature.  It would be a
bit perverse to map air temperatures.

Water temperature is another matter.  Water has a high heat capacity and
better heat transfer than still air.  It's
mid-afternoon.  Outside is a bucket of water that's been there for several
days.  It should be around air temperature
here, but while it feels warm outside the water feels cold.

[resurrecting the proposal]

Go for it.
>

I was hoping you might do that. :)

It will probably pass without the subjective temperatures.
>

I think referencing to body temp would help, since you'd no longer have
quibbles about it depending what the
ambient temperature is.   Making the degree symbol optional would help.

Subversive mappers can then place subjective values in there ... and those
> values will probably be interpreted differently by different people. Such
> is the world.
>

I'd leave the subjective stuff in.  It's better to have a documented way of
doing things some mappers think should
not be done than not document it at all because it WILL end up being done
either way.  I'd leave it there until and
unless the talk page indicates there's too much opposition.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 30. Aug 2018, at 15:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Your bodies reaction depends on what it is acclimatised to. 
> If you live in a hot climate, such as Darwin Australia, you put a jumper on 
> at 25 C because it is cold.
> If you live in a colder climate, such as Hobart Australia, you go swimming at 
> 25 Cbecause it is warm/hot. 
> Both peoples are fit and healthy yet they perceive the same temperature as 
> different things. 


you are referring to air temperature, where it is also significant to look at 
humidity and wind in order to estimate how you perceive it. For water 
temperature, it is different, although different people might perceive slightly 
different limits as warm/hot or cold.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Warin 

On 30/08/18 22:17, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



Temperature, I am afraid, is mine.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Temperature



It seemed reasonably well thought out and written. Shame it failed.  
It seems it might
have been approved had you said the degree symbol was optional.  
People could use it
if they wished but people could omit it.  Parsers in renderers could 
cope with people using
symbols of similar appearance by simply ignoring anything that isn't a 
digit, a decimal point
and C or F, incidentally handling the degree symbol being optional.  
In fact your table of incorrect
usage shows the degree symbol on the corrected usages, so it appears 
even you consider it

optional.

The only thing I have a problem with is referring subjective 
temperatures to ambient.  For me, subjective
temperatures are referred to body temperature.  Is it warmer or colder 
than me?  Especially when dealing
with water I am going to immerse body parts in.  It makes even less 
sense to consider ambient temperature
when dealing with extreme ambient conditions.  An open-air swimming 
pool in the middle of winter might be
warmer than ambient by several degrees in the late afternoon when the 
air is cooling down but the thermal
inertia of the water keeps it warm, but it's still damned cold.  So 
I'd refer subjective temps to body temp
and add "ambient" as an objective value.  Which makes tap water (in 
most parts of the world) cold whether
it's colder or warmer than ambient, because it's colder than me (which 
is why it feels cold).


Your bodies reaction depends on what it is acclimatised to.
If you live in a hot climate, such as Darwin Australia, you put a jumper 
on at 25 C because it is cold.
If you live in a colder climate, such as Hobart Australia, you go 
swimming at 25 Cbecause it is warm/hot.
Both peoples are fit and healthy yet they perceive the same temperature 
as different things.


.. Yes I have been to both places ... and have some experience with them.
On immediately arriving in a hot humid place I sought shelter in an 
air-conditioned shopping mall, my aunt having spent quite some time in 
this climate began to shake with the cold.
I found it nice. But a week later it was cool .. not to the extent that 
I would start to shake, but cool.
The body adapts, given time it will find things 'normal' that you would 
now find uncomfortable.




Can proposals be resurrected?  Or a new proposal started which is very 
similar but
with changes that might improve its chances of approval?  In any case, 
I'd use the tag if I needed to

specify a temperature on something.


Go for it.
It will probably pass without the subjective temperatures.
Subversive mappers can then place subjective values in there ... and 
those values will probably be interpreted differently by different 
people. Such is the world.
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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 30. Aug 2018, at 14:17, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Can proposals be resurrected?  Or a new proposal started which is very 
> similar but
> with changes that might improve its chances of approval? 


yes, you can do this. Typically you should try to improve the original proposal 
by integrating propositions from the first voting.


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

On 30. Aug 2018, at 14:17, Paul Allen  wrote:

>> Temperature, I am afraid, is mine.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Temperature
> 
> It seemed reasonably well thought out and written.  Shame it failed.


it doesn’t matter that it “failed”, if you believe it works for you, just use 
it. There were many people in favor, but more against. Looking through the 
comments of naysayers, some no votes might not be valid (missing a reason) or 
could make you lol (“i’m against this tag because if applied to the air you 
would have to constantly update its value”, seriously?), generally many 
no-voters seem to have rejected the proposal for small (IMHO often not 
relevant) reasons.

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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread dktue 
I also think the temperature-tag-proposal was very well thought through. 
This is why I now used it to tag the temperature of the pools.


Am 30.08.2018 um 14:17 schrieb Paul Allen:
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



Temperature, I am afraid, is mine.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Temperature



It seemed reasonably well thought out and written. Shame it failed.  
It seems it might
have been approved had you said the degree symbol was optional.  
People could use it
if they wished but people could omit it.  Parsers in renderers could 
cope with people using
symbols of similar appearance by simply ignoring anything that isn't a 
digit, a decimal point
and C or F, incidentally handling the degree symbol being optional.  
In fact your table of incorrect
usage shows the degree symbol on the corrected usages, so it appears 
even you consider it

optional.

The only thing I have a problem with is referring subjective 
temperatures to ambient.  For me, subjective
temperatures are referred to body temperature.  Is it warmer or colder 
than me?  Especially when dealing
with water I am going to immerse body parts in.  It makes even less 
sense to consider ambient temperature
when dealing with extreme ambient conditions.  An open-air swimming 
pool in the middle of winter might be
warmer than ambient by several degrees in the late afternoon when the 
air is cooling down but the thermal
inertia of the water keeps it warm, but it's still damned cold.  So 
I'd refer subjective temps to body temp
and add "ambient" as an objective value.  Which makes tap water (in 
most parts of the world) cold whether
it's colder or warmer than ambient, because it's colder than me (which 
is why it feels cold).


Can proposals be resurrected?  Or a new proposal started which is very 
similar but
with changes that might improve its chances of approval?  In any case, 
I'd use the tag if I needed to

specify a temperature on something.

--
Paul



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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Paul Allen 
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Temperature, I am afraid, is mine.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Temperature


It seemed reasonably well thought out and written.  Shame it failed.  It
seems it might
have been approved had you said the degree symbol was optional.  People
could use it
if they wished but people could omit it.  Parsers in renderers could cope
with people using
symbols of similar appearance by simply ignoring anything that isn't a
digit, a decimal point
and C or F, incidentally handling the degree symbol being optional.  In
fact your table of incorrect
usage shows the degree symbol on the corrected usages, so it appears even
you consider it
optional.

The only thing I have a problem with is referring subjective temperatures
to ambient.  For me, subjective
temperatures are referred to body temperature.  Is it warmer or colder than
me?  Especially when dealing
with water I am going to immerse body parts in.  It makes even less sense
to consider ambient temperature
when dealing with extreme ambient conditions.  An open-air swimming pool in
the middle of winter might be
warmer than ambient by several degrees in the late afternoon when the air
is cooling down but the thermal
inertia of the water keeps it warm, but it's still damned cold.  So I'd
refer subjective temps to body temp
and add "ambient" as an objective value.  Which makes tap water (in most
parts of the world) cold whether
it's colder or warmer than ambient, because it's colder than me (which is
why it feels cold).

Can proposals be resurrected?  Or a new proposal started which is very
similar but
with changes that might improve its chances of approval?  In any case, I'd
use the tag if I needed to
specify a temperature on something.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Properties of swimming pools

2018-08-30 Thread Warin 

On 30/08/18 21:12, dktue wrote:

Hello,

I would like to tag information about the water-temperature and the 
depth of the separate pools in the outdoor-swimming pool [1]. Are 
there any suggested tag-names or should I just go with "depth" and 
"temperature"?


Go with depth..
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:depth
I would use the same conventions as width
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:width

Temperature, I am afraid, is mine.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Temperature

There does not look to be any competing methods to tag temperature.

Good luck.



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