Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jan 24, 2020, 13:50 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 10:06, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <> 
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>>
>> &&   Deleting a non-functioning fountain node, is discouraged
>> But in case of removed structure deletion
>> of node is encouraged.
>>
>
> There are some (I'm one of them) who would say that if the fountain is likely 
> to
> be remapped because there are many images of it on the web, then it is better
> to retain the node and apply a removed: lifecycle prefix to it (and possibly a
> note, explaining things).  Others will strongly disagree, saying that OSM
> doesn't map history and ignoring that this is actually a quality assurance
> mechanism.
>
Yes, it is acceptable and desirable as long as there is a real risk of mistaken 
remapping.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 10:06, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> &&   Deleting a non-functioning fountain node, is discouraged
> But in case of removed structure deletion
> of node is encouraged.
>

There are some (I'm one of them) who would say that if the fountain is
likely to
be remapped because there are many images of it on the web, then it is
better
to retain the node and apply a removed: lifecycle prefix to it (and
possibly a
note, explaining things).  Others will strongly disagree, saying that OSM
doesn't map history and ignoring that this is actually a quality assurance
mechanism.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

23 Jan 2020, 19:14 by europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com:
> operation_status = XXX  - for fountains which are not operational on a 
> specific sighting
>
In such case I would add an OSM note
and ask for a resurvey.

And report issue to local government.
With this tag it is hard to guess
whatever it is permanently broken,
or is matter unsure about state.

Note that sometimes single survey
is enough to establish that object
is no longer active.
> disused:    --- when the observation or observations leads the mapper to 
> believe there is a good chance the fountain is no longer working on a 
> permanent basis
>
And when object itself is still present.
In case of demolished ones that are
not likely to be mistakenly remapped
deletion is clearly preferable.
> intermittent = yes - sometime the fountain is working, sometimes it is off 
> seasonal =    if it is obvious which season the fountain 
> will be operating and which season the fountain will be shut. 
> opening_hours = month range (e.g.  Apr-Oct) - to designate a specific month 
> range when the fountain is operational. 
>
+1
> &&   Deleting a non-functioning fountain node, is discouraged
>
But in case of removed structure deletion
of node is encouraged.___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[European Water Project]

Hello,

To summarize the discussion so far  :

All the following are acceptable ways to tag a fountain  :

operation_status = XXX  - for fountains which are not operational on a
specific sighting
disused:--- when the observation or observations leads the mapper to
believe there is a good chance the fountain is no longer working on a
permanent basis
intermittent = yes - sometime the fountain is working, sometimes it is off
seasonal =if it is obvious which season the fountain
will be operating and which season the fountain will be shut.
opening_hours = month range (e.g.  Apr-Oct) - to designate a specific month
range when the fountain is operational.

&&   Deleting a non-functioning fountain node, is discouraged

Best regards,

Stuart


On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 17:35, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 20. Jan 2020, at 16:34, marc marc  wrote:
> >
> > but to switch to disused: if there's no water on the day of the survey,
> > I think that's excessive.
>
>
> for the drinking fountains in my area seeing there is no water does indeed
> justify to put it on disused, while it’s in theory just a tap that is
> closed it isn’t something that is done on a frequent basis and from
> experience it is likely it will remain like this for months and maybe years
> or forever.
> For decorative fountains the situation is different here because they are
> usually only turned off for maintenance/damages and not for no apparent
> reason (this depends on the context, in Berlin for example they turned
> fountains off to save money, at least this was the situation 10years ago
> and outside the highlight tourist areas). Unless a decorative fountain is
> visibly and seriously damaged I wouldn’t set it to disused here, even if I
> saw it without water.
>
> I also encourage everybody to use the fountain subtag, by the way.
>
>
> Cheers Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Jan 2020, at 16:34, marc marc  wrote:
> 
> but to switch to disused: if there's no water on the day of the survey,
> I think that's excessive.


for the drinking fountains in my area seeing there is no water does indeed 
justify to put it on disused, while it’s in theory just a tap that is closed it 
isn’t something that is done on a frequent basis and from experience it is 
likely it will remain like this for months and maybe years or forever.
For decorative fountains the situation is different here because they are 
usually only turned off for maintenance/damages and not for no apparent reason 
(this depends on the context, in Berlin for example they turned fountains off 
to save money, at least this was the situation 10years ago and outside the 
highlight tourist areas). Unless a decorative fountain is visibly and seriously 
damaged I wouldn’t set it to disused here, even if I saw it without water.

I also encourage everybody to use the fountain subtag, by the way.


Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[European Water Project]

Dear Marc/Martin,

Would it be possible to prepare a "best practice" proposal for how
fountains which are temporarily not working should be tagged ?

If so, how can I create the wiki template to be filled in - I am happy to
work on the first draft.

I am quite agnostic about which solution is chosen, but see more logic
using "status" or "operating status" than "disused".


Best regards,

Stuart

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 16:34, marc marc  wrote:

> I'm using operation_status when I see a such one.
> and I'm trying to survey again later to see if it was a temporary
> problem or if it's disused:
> but to switch to disused: if there's no water on the day of the survey,
> I think that's excessive.
>
> Le 20.01.20 à 15:59, European Water Project a écrit :
> > Dear Martin,
> >
> > Wouldn't it make more sense for mappers to tag status=broken or
> > status=out_of_order instead of deleting ?
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 15:53, Martin Koppenhoefer
> > mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Am Do., 16. Jan. 2020 um 03:16 Uhr schrieb Jarek Piórkowski
> > mailto:ja...@piorkowski.ca>>:
> >
> > Ah, good point! So I guess for a drinking fountain seasonal=yes
> > is the
> > most reasonable when I don't know the months when it's active
> > (I'm in
> > a climate that freezes, so they get shut down sometime before
> that).
> > That's decently human-readable and I'd guess most people will
> guess
> > right when informed that the fountain is "seasonal".
> >
> > Unfortunately I've just now started noticing that these are shut
> off
> > and while I guess they were actually shut down closer to
> November...
> >
> >
> >
> > it is complicated. Last time when most drinking fountains in Rome
> > were shut down was about 2 years ago in a dry period in the summer
> > (as a side note and very unfortunately, some mappers have deleted
> > the whole thing in this time just because the (internal) tap was
> > closed for some weeks). So the reason for seasonal availability
> > could be various, from shutting them in winter for frost protection
> > to shutting them in the summer for saving resources in a drought.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Martin
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[marc marc]

I'm using operation_status when I see a such one.
and I'm trying to survey again later to see if it was a temporary
problem or if it's disused:
but to switch to disused: if there's no water on the day of the survey,
I think that's excessive.

Le 20.01.20 à 15:59, European Water Project a écrit :
> Dear Martin,
> 
> Wouldn't it make more sense for mappers to tag status=broken or
> status=out_of_order instead of deleting ?
> 
> best regards,
> 
> Stuart 
> 
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 15:53, Martin Koppenhoefer
> mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Am Do., 16. Jan. 2020 um 03:16 Uhr schrieb Jarek Piórkowski
> mailto:ja...@piorkowski.ca>>:
> 
> Ah, good point! So I guess for a drinking fountain seasonal=yes
> is the
> most reasonable when I don't know the months when it's active
> (I'm in
> a climate that freezes, so they get shut down sometime before that).
> That's decently human-readable and I'd guess most people will guess
> right when informed that the fountain is "seasonal".
> 
> Unfortunately I've just now started noticing that these are shut off
> and while I guess they were actually shut down closer to November...
> 
> 
> 
> it is complicated. Last time when most drinking fountains in Rome
> were shut down was about 2 years ago in a dry period in the summer
> (as a side note and very unfortunately, some mappers have deleted
> the whole thing in this time just because the (internal) tap was
> closed for some weeks). So the reason for seasonal availability
> could be various, from shutting them in winter for frost protection
> to shutting them in the summer for saving resources in a drought.
> 
> Cheers
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[European Water Project]

Hi Martin,

disused:amenity=drinking_water is very good.

Is this documented as best practice for drinking fountains which are not
running without explanation?

How do you document an out of ourder tagged fountain which was
"amenity=fountain && drinking_water=yes" ? disused:drinking_water=yes ?

Best regards,

Stuart

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 16:10, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> Am Mo., 20. Jan. 2020 um 16:01 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Wouldn't it make more sense for mappers to tag status=broken or status=
>> out_of_order instead of deleting ?
>>
>
>
> personally I have changed them to "disused:amenity=drinking_water" (and
> back then).
> The problem with additional status qualifiers is that dataconsumers must
> be aware of them (usually none is aware and all continue to show drinking
> water where the currently isn't).
>
> Certainly, deleting isn't a good option, and we discourage it for cases
> like this (I guess it IS indeed discouraged).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 20. Jan. 2020 um 16:01 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:

> Wouldn't it make more sense for mappers to tag status=broken or status=out
> _of_order instead of deleting ?
>


personally I have changed them to "disused:amenity=drinking_water" (and
back then).
The problem with additional status qualifiers is that dataconsumers must be
aware of them (usually none is aware and all continue to show drinking
water where the currently isn't).

Certainly, deleting isn't a good option, and we discourage it for cases
like this (I guess it IS indeed discouraged).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[European Water Project]

Dear Martin,

Wouldn't it make more sense for mappers to tag status=broken or status=out_
of_order instead of deleting ?

best regards,

Stuart

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 15:53, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> Am Do., 16. Jan. 2020 um 03:16 Uhr schrieb Jarek Piórkowski <
> ja...@piorkowski.ca>:
>
>> Ah, good point! So I guess for a drinking fountain seasonal=yes is the
>> most reasonable when I don't know the months when it's active (I'm in
>> a climate that freezes, so they get shut down sometime before that).
>> That's decently human-readable and I'd guess most people will guess
>> right when informed that the fountain is "seasonal".
>>
>> Unfortunately I've just now started noticing that these are shut off
>> and while I guess they were actually shut down closer to November...
>
>
>
> it is complicated. Last time when most drinking fountains in Rome were
> shut down was about 2 years ago in a dry period in the summer (as a side
> note and very unfortunately, some mappers have deleted the whole thing in
> this time just because the (internal) tap was closed for some weeks). So
> the reason for seasonal availability could be various, from shutting them
> in winter for frost protection to shutting them in the summer for saving
> resources in a drought.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 16. Jan. 2020 um 03:16 Uhr schrieb Jarek Piórkowski <
ja...@piorkowski.ca>:

> Ah, good point! So I guess for a drinking fountain seasonal=yes is the
> most reasonable when I don't know the months when it's active (I'm in
> a climate that freezes, so they get shut down sometime before that).
> That's decently human-readable and I'd guess most people will guess
> right when informed that the fountain is "seasonal".
>
> Unfortunately I've just now started noticing that these are shut off
> and while I guess they were actually shut down closer to November...



it is complicated. Last time when most drinking fountains in Rome were shut
down was about 2 years ago in a dry period in the summer (as a side note
and very unfortunately, some mappers have deleted the whole thing in this
time just because the (internal) tap was closed for some weeks). So the
reason for seasonal availability could be various, from shutting them in
winter for frost protection to shutting them in the summer for saving
resources in a drought.

Cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 16. Jan. 2020 um 02:53 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> > seasonal=summer
>
> Well, this is the problem with the tag "seasonal" - it's not 100%
> clear if "seasonal=summer" means "this feature is only available in
> the summer" or "this feature is NOT available in the summer".
>


I believe tags are referring to the object they describe. seasonal=* means
the feature is available only part of the year, and a value of "summer"
makes it more concrete (only in summer).



> As mentioned on the wiki page "Note these values can be ambiguous for
> features that that vary between different states since it can be
> unclear which state occurs at which time of the year."
>


maybe it is for natural features like waterways, although I find it
generally hard to follow this reasoning.





>
> And here in the tropics it is every more confusing to interpret
> "seasonal=wet_season" and "seasonal=dry_season" - one expects
> "seasonal=dry_season" for roads and "seasonal=wet_season" for rivers,
> but this is not always used properly.
>


just use seasonal=yes ;-)

Cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 at 00:51, European Water Project
 wrote:
>>5. Re: Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water
>>   fountains. (Jarek Piórkowski)
>>     Jarek, I think preferable to avoid seasons on open hours and put 
>> month range to avoid Northern/Southern hemisphere confusion. What do you 
>> think?

That would be ideal. However in my case I really don't know what the
active months are.

I know it's shut off in the dead of winter, and I'm guessing it's shut
down before first freezes and turned back on after thaws. But I don't
know exactly, and the temperatures/freeze dates can vary widely.

I could probably find out from the city/responsible authority, but
that raises issues with verifiability.

--Jarek

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[marc marc]

Le 16.01.20 à 02:52, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> The simple "seasonal=yes/no" is at least clear, though with natural
> features "intermittent=yes/no" is more common and has a similar
> meaning.

I see a big difference between the two:
an intermittent water point provides water today but not tomorrow but
again the day after tomorrow depending mostly on the precipitation of
the previous days.
A seasonal water supply point provides water every day in the summer,
for example, and no day during the frost period.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[European Water Project]

>
>3. Re: Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water
>   fountains. (Joseph Eisenberg)
> >>>> Joseph, of all the suggestions I have seen. Open hours seems the
> cleanest and least ambiguous




>5. Re: Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water
>   fountains. (Jarek Piórkowski)
>   >>>>  Jarek, I think preferable to avoid seasons on open hours and put
> month range to avoid Northern/Southern hemisphere confusion. What do you
> think?
>
 --

>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:52:29 +0900
> From: Joseph Eisenberg 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>     
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for
> outdoor water fountains.
> Message-ID:
>  x5bzo6rqxhmild...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> > seasonal=summer
>
> Well, this is the problem with the tag "seasonal" - it's not 100%
> clear if "seasonal=summer" means "this feature is only available in
> the summer" or "this feature is NOT available in the summer".
>
> As mentioned on the wiki page "Note these values can be ambiguous for
> features that that vary between different states since it can be
> unclear which state occurs at which time of the year."
>
> For a drinking fountain I would assume that "seasonal=summer" meant
> "available only in summer), but for a natural spring in a hot,
> dry-summer climate, I would have to assume that "seasonal=summer" is a
> mistake which meant "not present in summer", though it should have
> been tagged "seasonal=autumn;winter;spring" perhaps.
>
> And here in the tropics it is every more confusing to interpret
> "seasonal=wet_season" and "seasonal=dry_season" - one expects
> "seasonal=dry_season" for roads and "seasonal=wet_season" for rivers,
> but this is not always used properly.
>
> The simple "seasonal=yes/no" is at least clear, though with natural
> features "intermittent=yes/no" is more common and has a similar
> meaning.
>
> On 1/16/20, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 01:19, Joseph Eisenberg
> >  wrote:
> >> On 1/15/20, European Water Project 
> wrote:
> >> > Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain
> >> > (whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and
> >> > drinking_water = yes" )?
> >>
> >> Since drinking fountains are man-made rather than natural features,
> >> they usually have a date when they are turned on or off.
> >> ...
> >> For a drinking fountain which is turned on sometime in April and is
> >> turned off sometime in November, you can use "opening_hours=Apr-Nov".
> >>
> >> If the fountain or drinking fountain will be turned on April 10th and
> >> turned off November 25th, you would use "opening_hours=Apr 10-Nov 25"
> >
> > What is the recommendation in cases where the months when they are
> > turned on and off are not easily determined? I have been thinking of
> > seasonal=summer but happy to take a better tag instead.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --Jarek
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>
>
>
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:14:45 -0500
> From: Jarek Piórkowski 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for
> outdoor water fountains.
> Message-ID:
>  9eksxog9bgy18xg6nsxu_aerzg56...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Joseph Eisenberg
>  wrote:
> > > seasonal=summer
> >
> > Well, this is the problem with the tag "seasonal" - it's not 100%
> > clear if "seasonal=summer" means "this feature is only available in
> > the summer" or "this feature is NOT available in the summer".
>
> Ah, good point! So I guess for a drinking fountain seasonal=yes is the
> most reasonable when I don't know the months when it's active (I'm in
> a climate that freezes, so they get shut down sometime before that).
> That's decently human-readable and I'd guess most people will guess
> right when informed that the fountain is "seasonal".
>
> Unfortunately I've just now started noticing that these are shut off
> and while I guess they were actually shut down closer to November...
>
> I was also thinking about public toilets that get closed off in the
> winter (I think because they're not heated, so no water in winter?) -
> I guess opening_hours=off @ (winter) is the best we can do if we don't
> know when they are closed off.
>
> (I'm keeping in mind that "winter" isn't unambiguous, but I hope
> software can apply a rough preset based on hemisphere in which the
> feature is located?)
>
> --Jarek
>
>
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
> > seasonal=summer
>
> Well, this is the problem with the tag "seasonal" - it's not 100%
> clear if "seasonal=summer" means "this feature is only available in
> the summer" or "this feature is NOT available in the summer".

Ah, good point! So I guess for a drinking fountain seasonal=yes is the
most reasonable when I don't know the months when it's active (I'm in
a climate that freezes, so they get shut down sometime before that).
That's decently human-readable and I'd guess most people will guess
right when informed that the fountain is "seasonal".

Unfortunately I've just now started noticing that these are shut off
and while I guess they were actually shut down closer to November...

I was also thinking about public toilets that get closed off in the
winter (I think because they're not heated, so no water in winter?) -
I guess opening_hours=off @ (winter) is the best we can do if we don't
know when they are closed off.

(I'm keeping in mind that "winter" isn't unambiguous, but I hope
software can apply a rough preset based on hemisphere in which the
feature is located?)

--Jarek

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> seasonal=summer

Well, this is the problem with the tag "seasonal" - it's not 100%
clear if "seasonal=summer" means "this feature is only available in
the summer" or "this feature is NOT available in the summer".

As mentioned on the wiki page "Note these values can be ambiguous for
features that that vary between different states since it can be
unclear which state occurs at which time of the year."

For a drinking fountain I would assume that "seasonal=summer" meant
"available only in summer), but for a natural spring in a hot,
dry-summer climate, I would have to assume that "seasonal=summer" is a
mistake which meant "not present in summer", though it should have
been tagged "seasonal=autumn;winter;spring" perhaps.

And here in the tropics it is every more confusing to interpret
"seasonal=wet_season" and "seasonal=dry_season" - one expects
"seasonal=dry_season" for roads and "seasonal=wet_season" for rivers,
but this is not always used properly.

The simple "seasonal=yes/no" is at least clear, though with natural
features "intermittent=yes/no" is more common and has a similar
meaning.

On 1/16/20, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 01:19, Joseph Eisenberg
>  wrote:
>> On 1/15/20, European Water Project  wrote:
>> > Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain
>> > (whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and
>> > drinking_water = yes" )?
>>
>> Since drinking fountains are man-made rather than natural features,
>> they usually have a date when they are turned on or off.
>> ...
>> For a drinking fountain which is turned on sometime in April and is
>> turned off sometime in November, you can use "opening_hours=Apr-Nov".
>>
>> If the fountain or drinking fountain will be turned on April 10th and
>> turned off November 25th, you would use "opening_hours=Apr 10-Nov 25"
>
> What is the recommendation in cases where the months when they are
> turned on and off are not easily determined? I have been thinking of
> seasonal=summer but happy to take a better tag instead.
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 01:19, Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
> On 1/15/20, European Water Project  wrote:
> > Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain
> > (whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and
> > drinking_water = yes" )?
>
> Since drinking fountains are man-made rather than natural features,
> they usually have a date when they are turned on or off.
> ...
> For a drinking fountain which is turned on sometime in April and is
> turned off sometime in November, you can use "opening_hours=Apr-Nov".
>
> If the fountain or drinking fountain will be turned on April 10th and
> turned off November 25th, you would use "opening_hours=Apr 10-Nov 25"

What is the recommendation in cases where the months when they are
turned on and off are not easily determined? I have been thinking of
seasonal=summer but happy to take a better tag instead.

Thanks,
--Jarek

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Jmapb]

On 1/15/2020 10:26 AM, marc marc wrote:


Le 15.01.20 à 16:15, Jmapb via Tagging a écrit :


Don't forget about man_made=drinking_fountain!

omg, what's the diff with amenity=drinking_water ?
the direction of water flow upwards?
348 out of 371 objects also have an amenity tag, which
shows the problem.

it would indeed be a good idea not to forget it and to ask the user if
it is a fountain in the osm sense (a bit artistic) or a water jet. and
add the most current tag.


As I understand, amenity=drinking_water is really just referring to the
availability of potable water, and doesn't describe the form. It could
be a a drinking fountain, a bottle filler, spring, a well, a pump, a
water tap on the side of a building, a bottle filler, who knows?

J


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Philip Barnes]

On Wednesday, 15 January 2020, marc marc wrote:
> Le 15.01.20 à 16:15, Jmapb via Tagging a écrit :
> > On 1/15/2020 12:55 AM, European Water Project wrote:
> >> Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain
> >> (whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and
> >> drinking_water = yes" )?
> > 
> > Don't forget about man_made=drinking_fountain!
> 
> omg, what's the diff with amenity=drinking_water ?
> the direction of water flow upwards?
> 348 out of 371 objects also have an amenity tag, which
> shows the problem.
> 
> it would indeed be a good idea not to forget it and to ask the user if
> it is a fountain in the osm sense (a bit artistic) or a water jet. and
> add the most current tag.
> 

Drinking fountains, water upwards can be drank from, whereas if the water is 
downwards from a tag a drinking vessel is needed.

Under UK law if the later is provided in the workplace then a supply of cups 
must be provided, the former doesn't.

Phil (trigpoint) 

-- 
Sent from my Sailfish device
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[marc marc]

Le 15.01.20 à 16:15, Jmapb via Tagging a écrit :
> On 1/15/2020 12:55 AM, European Water Project wrote:
>> Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain
>> (whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and
>> drinking_water = yes" )?
> 
> Don't forget about man_made=drinking_fountain!

omg, what's the diff with amenity=drinking_water ?
the direction of water flow upwards?
348 out of 371 objects also have an amenity tag, which
shows the problem.

it would indeed be a good idea not to forget it and to ask the user if
it is a fountain in the osm sense (a bit artistic) or a water jet. and
add the most current tag.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Jmapb via Tagging]

On 1/15/2020 12:55 AM, European Water Project wrote:

Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain
(whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and
drinking_water = yes" )?


Don't forget about man_made=drinking_fountain!

J


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[marc marc]

Le 15.01.20 à 06:55, European Water Project a écrit :
> Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain

yes I think so.
I'm going to check/survey the nearby fountains: some are closed
in winter but don't have a precise opening/closing date.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Joseph Eisenberg]

According to the wiki page for "service_times":

"The key service_times=* is generally used for the times of service of
a given feature, if this is different from the opening hours or if a
special service (like in the case of churches) is offered in this
time. Otherwise please use opening_hours=*."

It is much, much less common than opening_hours (it's a 100 to 1
ratio). And it's almost always used with amenity=place_of_worship +
religion:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service_times#combinations

This makes sense, because places of worship might be open every day
(e.g. catholic churches in Latin America) but the public worship
services are only held at certain times.

For a feature like a drinking fountain, opening_hours= would be the
standard tag to use, and this combination has already been used over
2000 times with amenity=drinking_water
(http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/PLd), while service_times has been used
exactly once (http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/PLc).

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 1/15/20, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> Am Mi., 15. Jan. 2020 um 07:20 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Since drinking fountains are man-made rather than natural features,
>> they usually have a date when they are turned on or off.
>>
>> This can be specified with the key "opening_hours=*" - this is the
>> common British English term used to say "when is this this feature
>> open and available".
>>
>> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours for details
>> on how this is used.
>>
>
>
> For a drinking fountain (or any other fountain), I would prefer
> "service_times" or conditional tagging and not "opening hours" (as long as
> the thing is still accessible when it is turned off). IMHO, seasonal could
> work as well (and doesn't require to know the date, if there is).
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 15. Jan. 2020 um 07:20 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> Since drinking fountains are man-made rather than natural features,
> they usually have a date when they are turned on or off.
>
> This can be specified with the key "opening_hours=*" - this is the
> common British English term used to say "when is this this feature
> open and available".
>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours for details
> on how this is used.
>


For a drinking fountain (or any other fountain), I would prefer
"service_times" or conditional tagging and not "opening hours" (as long as
the thing is still accessible when it is turned off). IMHO, seasonal could
work as well (and doesn't require to know the date, if there is).

Cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Warin]

On 15/1/20 4:55 pm, European Water Project wrote:

Dear All,

Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain 
(whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and 
drinking_water = yes" )?


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:seasonal


On the natural=spring page, the combination "natural=spring and 
seasonal= * " was suggested.


But the combination of drinking_water= yes or amenity=fountain with 
tag seasonal was not suggested.


Best regards,

Stuart




You could use seasonal. open_hours could be used where there are set 
dates, but seasonal if climatic conditions determine the timing.



An "amenity=fountain" is described as "A fountain for cultural / 
decorational / recreational purposes."


I would not expect any of these in my country to be fit for drinking, 
and I take the same attitude when traveling.



Some of these decorative ones are turned off seasonally - to prevent 
damage from freezing pipes, or ice damage to the decorations,


The recreational ones may also get turned off for similar reasons, not 
to mention it being too cold to get wet.



For a 'drinking fountain' there is man_made=drinking_fountain.




'



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Query regarding seasonal tag combined for outdoor water fountains.

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Since drinking fountains are man-made rather than natural features,
they usually have a date when they are turned on or off.

This can be specified with the key "opening_hours=*" - this is the
common British English term used to say "when is this this feature
open and available".

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours for details
on how this is used.

Examples:

For a drinking fountain which is turned on sometime in April and is
turned off sometime in November, you can use "opening_hours=Apr-Nov".

If the fountain or drinking fountain will be turned on April 10th and
turned off November 25th, you would use "opening_hours=Apr 10-Nov 25"

And if you have a drinking fountain which is only turned on during
certain daytime hours in the northern summer, you can use something
like "opening_hours=Jun-Aug: 6:30-18:30"

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 1/15/20, European Water Project  wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Would it be appropriate to use the tag "seasonal" for a water fountain
> (whether tagged as "amenity=drinking_water" or "amenity = fountain and
> drinking_water = yes" )?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:seasonal
>
>
> On the natural=spring page, the combination "natural=spring and seasonal= *
> " was suggested.
>
> But the combination of drinking_water= yes or amenity=fountain with tag
> seasonal was not suggested.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging