Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[OSM]

Am 11.09.2023 um 23:39 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick:

Not arguing, but

oneway:foot = 5024
foot:backward = 394
foot:forward = 300

Personally, I would interpret that as time that the wiki had a 
rewrite! :-)


Voted by their "foot" ... ;-) - and I used it too ...
But it is already rewritten:

On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 19:19, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:


as „oneway“ is defined for vehicles only, „oneway:foot“ doesn’t
make a lot of sense. The wiki suggests „foot:backward“ or
„foot:forward“ as alternatives that follow the generic way of
tagging restrictions.



That is the official way - but it will be a long way until the "foot" 
will arrive there ...


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Not arguing, but

oneway:foot = 5024
foot:backward = 394
foot:forward = 300

Personally, I would interpret that as time that the wiki had a rewrite! :-)

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 19:19, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 11 Sep 2023, at 08:39, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
> foot:oneway=yes / oneway:foot=yes?
>
>
>
> as „oneway“ is defined for vehicles only, „oneway:foot“ doesn’t make a lot
> of sense. The wiki suggests „foot:backward“ or „foot:forward“ as
> alternatives that follow the generic way of tagging restrictions.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway#Pedestrians
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11 Sep 2023, at 08:39, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> foot:oneway=yes / oneway:foot=yes?


as „oneway“ is defined for vehicles only, „oneway:foot“ doesn’t make a lot of 
sense. The wiki suggests „foot:backward“ or „foot:forward“ as alternatives that 
follow the generic way of tagging restrictions.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway#Pedestrians

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 16:22, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> The problem is that we frequently have cycleways or food-cycle-ways that
> are legally oneway for cyclists, but not for pedestrians. They are tagged
> "oneway=yes". I agree we need a oneway tag for pedestrians, but it cannot
> be a simple oneway=yes because that is already in use with a different
> meaning, i.e. "oneway for vehicles".
>

foot:oneway=yes / oneway:foot=yes?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Volker Schmidt]

The problem is that we frequently have cycleways or food-cycle-ways that
are legally oneway for cyclists, but not for pedestrians. They are tagged
"oneway=yes". I agree we need a oneway tag for pedestrians, but it cannot
be a simple oneway=yes because that is already in use with a different
meaning, i.e. "oneway for vehicles".

On Mon, 11 Sep 2023, 08:03 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging, <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Sep 10, 2023, 23:37 by graemefi...@gmail.com:
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 01:25, Niels Elgaard Larsen 
> wrote:
>
> Volker Schmidt:
> > Be careful: oneway=* is a legal access tag, only valid for vehicles, not
> for pedestrians.
>
>
> We do have a lot of highway=footway,oneway=yes
>
>
> Also know of suspended Tree Walk walkways e.g.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.23281/153.13822 which are
> signposted as oneway, & tagged the same
>
> And there are oneway hiking trails where it is a legal restriction.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Sep 10, 2023, 23:37 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
> On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 01:25, Niels Elgaard Larsen <> elga...@agol.dk> > 
> wrote:
>
>> Volker Schmidt:
>>  > Be careful: oneway=* is a legal access tag, only valid for vehicles, not 
>> for pedestrians.
>>  
>>  
>>  We do have a lot of highway=footway,oneway=yes
>>
>
> Also know of suspended Tree Walk walkways e.g. > 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.23281/153.13822>  which are 
> signposted as oneway, & tagged the same
>
And there are oneway hiking trails where it is a legal restriction.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 01:25, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:

> Volker Schmidt:
> > Be careful: oneway=* is a legal access tag, only valid for vehicles, not
> for pedestrians.
>
>
> We do have a lot of highway=footway,oneway=yes
>

Also know of suspended Tree Walk walkways e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.23281/153.13822 which are
signposted as oneway, & tagged the same

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Volker Schmidt:

Be careful: oneway=* is a legal access tag, only valid for vehicles, not for 
pedestrians.



We do have a lot of highway=footway,oneway=yes
at museums, train stations, airports, zoos, etc.
Which is useful for routers.

The wiki does mention vehicles. It may not always be a very legal restriction. And in 
many cases it could be considered false oneway footways. E.g., a museum might have a 
signed direction thorough the exhibition, but usually you can still wander back and 
forth a bit (not at the crown jewels).


Still, if think it makes sense.

E.g.,
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/368800221

Although, using an OSM router here is already cheating.

oneway:foot and foot:backward is already documented in the wiki and could be used on 
mtb paths.


I see that we have 4 oneway=recommended


On Sat, 9 Sep 2023, 07:05 Andrew Harvey, > wrote:


I have previously proposed the tag path=mtb
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Tag:path%3Dmtb
 as a way to 
say
it's a purpose built mountain biking track (which if it has features like 
jumps,
skinnies, berms etc would make it such). Unfortunately the proposal could 
not
gain a consistent consensus about the best way to tag purpose built mountain
biking tracks/trails and didn't develop further, so while it won't impact
rendering, you can still use this proposed tag.

On Sat, 9 Sept 2023 at 03:09, Bryce Nesbitt mailto:bry...@obviously.com>> wrote:


I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning 
a route
that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one
way downhill mountain bike flow tracks.

I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly 
delineated we
would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
But I was left without clear tagging ideas.




One of the trails was
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667

highway 
  path

horse   no
name Bunny
oneway:bicycle
 
  yes

surface 
  dirt


With a clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a
single direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.




Is this trail tagged the best that can be?

Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look 
different
from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
highway 
  path

nameHiking Trail
surface dirt
bicycle 

permissive




I see that even /OpenCyclemap /does not draw directional arrows on the
"Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Warin]

On 9/9/23 17:31, Volker Schmidt wrote:
Be careful: oneway=* is a legal access tag, only valid for vehicles, 
not for pedestrians.



Some pedestrian barriers are 'oneway' .. for example turnstiles at train 
stations where the turnstile only allows travel if a card/ticket is 
produced. I know of another in a very large public park .. gates are 
locked around sunset but you can get out using the turnstile, yes it 
does have imposing walls



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Volker Schmidt]

Be careful: oneway=* is a legal access tag, only valid for vehicles, not
for pedestrians.

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023, 07:05 Andrew Harvey,  wrote:

> I have previously proposed the tag path=mtb
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Tag:path%3Dmtb as a way to
> say it's a purpose built mountain biking track (which if it has features
> like jumps, skinnies, berms etc would make it such). Unfortunately the
> proposal could not gain a consistent consensus about the best way to tag
> purpose built mountain biking tracks/trails and didn't develop further, so
> while it won't impact rendering, you can still use this proposed tag.
>
> On Sat, 9 Sept 2023 at 03:09, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
>
>>
>> I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning a
>> route
>> that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one way 
>> downhill
>> mountain bike flow tracks.
>>
>> I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly
>> delineated we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
>> But I was left without clear tagging ideas.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> One of the trails was
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
>> highway  path
>> 
>> horse  no
>> name  Bunny
>> oneway:bicycle
>>  yes
>> 
>> surface  dirt
>> With a
>> clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a single
>> direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this trail tagged the best that can be?
>>
>> Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look
>> different from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
>> highway  path
>> 
>> name Hiking Trail
>> surface dirt
>> bicycle
>> 
>> permissive
>>
>>
>> I see that even *OpenCyclemap *does not draw directional arrows on the
>> "Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.
>>
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Andrew Harvey]

I have previously proposed the tag path=mtb
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Tag:path%3Dmtb as a way to say
it's a purpose built mountain biking track (which if it has features like
jumps, skinnies, berms etc would make it such). Unfortunately the proposal
could not gain a consistent consensus about the best way to tag purpose
built mountain biking tracks/trails and didn't develop further, so while it
won't impact rendering, you can still use this proposed tag.

On Sat, 9 Sept 2023 at 03:09, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

>
> I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning a
> route
> that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one way downhill
> mountain bike flow tracks.
>
> I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly
> delineated we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
> But I was left without clear tagging ideas.
>
>
>
>
> One of the trails was
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
> highway  path
> 
> horse  no
> name  Bunny
> oneway:bicycle
>  yes
> 
> surface  dirt
> With a
> clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a single
> direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.
>
>
>
>
> Is this trail tagged the best that can be?
>
> Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look different
> from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
> highway  path
> 
> name Hiking Trail
> surface dirt
> bicycle
> 
> permissive
>
>
> I see that even *OpenCyclemap *does not draw directional arrows on the
> "Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Kevin Broderick]

I don't know about the trail in question, but the one-way MTB trails near
me are clearly signed one-way regardless of transit mode. I'm not sure
offhand if foot traffic is actually banned or just a bad idea. I'd suggest
that, unless a one-way MTB trail is clearly two-way for other transit
modes, it should be tagged as oneway=yes.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 5:59 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 3:21 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:
>
>> So, no signage?
>> Incline and mtb-scale still don't say you can't hike there.
>>
> If I understand the OP you can hike there. Someone would have to make a
> router that is smart enough to know that despite being legal, hiking on a
> downhill mtb trail is not a good idea.
> Mike
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Mike Thompson]

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 3:21 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> So, no signage?
> Incline and mtb-scale still don't say you can't hike there.
>
If I understand the OP you can hike there. Someone would have to make a
router that is smart enough to know that despite being legal, hiking on a
downhill mtb trail is not a good idea.
Mike

>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Peter Elderson]

So, no signage?
Incline and mtb-scale still don't say you can't hike there.

Fr Gr. Peter Elderson


Op vr 8 sep 2023 om 23:01 schreef Mike Thompson :

> One of the trails was
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
> highway  path
> 
> horse  no
> name  Bunny
> oneway:bicycle
>  yes
> 
> surface  dirt
> 
>
> The solution might be to add incline=* and mtb:scale=* and then improve
> the routing algorithm to avoid downhill-only mountain bike trails when
> hiking.
>
> Mike
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 2:15 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:
>
>> How did you find out what these paths are? Any kind of signage there?
>>
>> Fr Gr Peter Elderson
>>
>>
>> Op vr 8 sep 2023 om 19:08 schreef Bryce Nesbitt :
>>
>>>
>>> I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning
>>> a route
>>> that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one way 
>>> downhill
>>> mountain bike flow tracks.
>>>
>>> I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly
>>> delineated we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
>>> But I was left without clear tagging ideas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One of the trails was
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
>>> highway 
>>> path 
>>> horse  no
>>> name  Bunny
>>> oneway:bicycle
>>>  yes
>>> 
>>> surface 
>>> dirt With
>>> a clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a single
>>> direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this trail tagged the best that can be?
>>>
>>> Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look
>>> different from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
>>> highway 
>>> path 
>>> name Hiking Trail
>>> surface dirt
>>> bicycle
>>> 
>>> permissive
>>>
>>>
>>> I see that even *OpenCyclemap *does not draw directional arrows on the
>>> "Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Mike Thompson]

One of the trails was
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
highway  path

horse  no
name  Bunny
oneway:bicycle
 yes

surface  dirt


The solution might be to add incline=* and mtb:scale=* and then improve the
routing algorithm to avoid downhill-only mountain bike trails when hiking.

Mike

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 2:15 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> How did you find out what these paths are? Any kind of signage there?
>
> Fr Gr Peter Elderson
>
>
> Op vr 8 sep 2023 om 19:08 schreef Bryce Nesbitt :
>
>>
>> I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning a
>> route
>> that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one way 
>> downhill
>> mountain bike flow tracks.
>>
>> I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly
>> delineated we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
>> But I was left without clear tagging ideas.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> One of the trails was
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
>> highway  path
>> 
>> horse  no
>> name  Bunny
>> oneway:bicycle
>>  yes
>> 
>> surface  dirt
>> With a
>> clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a single
>> direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this trail tagged the best that can be?
>>
>> Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look
>> different from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
>> highway  path
>> 
>> name Hiking Trail
>> surface dirt
>> bicycle
>> 
>> permissive
>>
>>
>> I see that even *OpenCyclemap *does not draw directional arrows on the
>> "Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Peter Elderson]

How did you find out what these paths are? Any kind of signage there?

Fr Gr Peter Elderson


Op vr 8 sep 2023 om 19:08 schreef Bryce Nesbitt :

>
> I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning a
> route
> that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one way downhill
> mountain bike flow tracks.
>
> I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly
> delineated we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
> But I was left without clear tagging ideas.
>
>
>
>
> One of the trails was
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
> highway  path
> 
> horse  no
> name  Bunny
> oneway:bicycle
>  yes
> 
> surface  dirt
> With a
> clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a single
> direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.
>
>
>
>
> Is this trail tagged the best that can be?
>
> Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look different
> from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
> highway  path
> 
> name Hiking Trail
> surface dirt
> bicycle
> 
> permissive
>
>
> I see that even *OpenCyclemap *does not draw directional arrows on the
> "Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Volker Schmidt]

This is a frequent tagging problem.
bicycle=* , oneway=* , and oneway/bicycle=* are tags describing the legal
access status.  So does highway=path (it implies, in many jurisdictions,
foot=yes and bicycle=yes).

There is a way to indicate a route is a MTB route, and also that such route
is technically unidirectional. If a highway=path is difficult to hike due
to the mtb jumping steps one could handle this by using sac_scale grading,
or by tagging the entire route with cai_scale.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 19:08 Bryce Nesbitt,  wrote:

>
> I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning a
> route
> that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one way downhill
> mountain bike flow tracks.
>
> I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly
> delineated we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
> But I was left without clear tagging ideas.
>
>
>
>
> One of the trails was
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
> highway  path
> 
> horse  no
> name  Bunny
> oneway:bicycle
>  yes
> 
> surface  dirt
> With a
> clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a single
> direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.
>
>
>
>
> Is this trail tagged the best that can be?
>
> Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look different
> from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
> highway  path
> 
> name Hiking Trail
> surface dirt
> bicycle
> 
> permissive
>
>
> I see that even *OpenCyclemap *does not draw directional arrows on the
> "Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[brad]

The tagging looks right,  but until the renderers pick up the oneway tag 
it doesn't seem hopeful.
Changing the name is not right, and bicycle=permissive is not right 
either.   foot=discouraged would make sense, maybe the apps will pick 
that up?



On 9/8/23 11:02, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:


I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up 
planning a route
that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one 
way downhill mountain bike flow tracks.


I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly 
delineated we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.

But I was left without clear tagging ideas.




One of the trails was
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667 

highway  
path 

horse   no
name Bunny
oneway:bicycle 
 
yes 

surface  
dirt 


With a clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in 
a single direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.





Is this trail tagged the best that can be?

Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look 
different from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
highway  
path 

nameHiking Trail
surface dirt
bicycle 


permissive




I see that even /OpenCyclemap /does not draw directional arrows on the 
"Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.



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