Re: [Tagging] agglomération
2012/11/23 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi The idea is that with a 30 driving rules list applying to an agglomération If it's just the traffic rules urban vs. rural, there's the tag (with 37 000+ uses) zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban where ** is the two letter country code. Don't count on anything ever deriving the rules (like maxspeed) from that tag, so tag the maxspeed anyway. Sorry Kytömaa, if you need to tag the maxspeed anyway, then what's the point of that tag? Are we saying that maxspeed is a prioritary tag, one so important because of its applications that it has to be always specified even if there are other tags that imply it? Regards, SImone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban source:maxspeed=zone30 highway=living_street have an effect on other traffic rules as well, so it's important to know that's the 'regime' the street is under. As a data consumer I also prefer to have the maxspeed be tagged explicitly. That's true for mapcss styles (in JOSM) and websites showing a map with maxspeeds as well. KISS. Cheers, Polyglot 2012/11/26 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com 2012/11/23 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi The idea is that with a 30 driving rules list applying to an agglomération If it's just the traffic rules urban vs. rural, there's the tag (with 37 000+ uses) zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban where ** is the two letter country code. Don't count on anything ever deriving the rules (like maxspeed) from that tag, so tag the maxspeed anyway. Sorry Kytömaa, if you need to tag the maxspeed anyway, then what's the point of that tag? Are we saying that maxspeed is a prioritary tag, one so important because of its applications that it has to be always specified even if there are other tags that imply it? Regards, SImone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
I think that is very country specific, not something that can be tagged worldwide. In the UK, beyond speed limits, there are no rule differences between urban and rural roads. However you have me curious, how do you see the rules as different? Phil -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 26/11/2012 10:37 Jo wrote: zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban source:maxspeed=zone30 highway=living_street have an effect on other traffic rules as well, so it's important to know that's the 'regime' the street is under. As a data consumer I also prefer to have the maxspeed be tagged explicitly. That's true for mapcss styles (in JOSM) and websites showing a map with maxspeeds as well. KISS. Cheers, Polyglot 2012/11/26 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com 2012/11/23 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi The idea is that with a 30 driving rules list applying to an agglomération If it's just the traffic rules urban vs. rural, there's the tag (with 37 000+ uses) zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban where ** is the two letter country code. Don't count on anything ever deriving the rules (like maxspeed) from that tag, so tag the maxspeed anyway. Sorry Kytömaa, if you need to tag the maxspeed anyway, then what's the point of that tag? Are we saying that maxspeed is a prioritary tag, one so important because of its applications that it has to be always specified even if there are other tags that imply it? Regards, SImone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
Simone Saviolo: if you need to tag the maxspeed anyway, then what's the point of that tag? It's not about the maxspeed, but the area that supposed to be considered urban, and interesting in itself. The rural/urban distinction affects other rules, even outside of the traffic code. Here the traffic rule differences are, at least the following: - no honking in urban areas, except in case of danger - no unnecessary(!) driving in urban areas - no parking on marked priority roads in rural areas. - in rural areas, only marked junctions (guideposts or a traffic sign) forbid overtaking - different rules for lights in parked cars - stricter rules about distances between slow vehicles in rural areas Examples of non-traffic implications include - dogs always on leash in urban areas, and one must collect the poop (with conditions). - (disruptive) drinking forbidden in urban areas - smaller traffic signs allowed in urban areas, with less spacing between them, and between them and the road Even the state funding for municipalities depends somehow on the population within the urban area, among many other things. -- Alv ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
On 26/11/2012 11:25, Philip Barnes wrote: I think that is very country specific, not something that can be tagged worldwide. In the UK, beyond speed limits, there are no rule differences between urban and rural roads. However you have me curious, how do you see the rules as different? In the UK there are rules about using dipped headlights in built-up areas, plus not using the horn overnight. Not sure if there's any other rules. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
Had forgotten the horn one, although the rule says 'except to avoid an accident', and there are really few other valid uses for the horn. I did look up the full beam rule, and cannot find one. All I can find is a rule that says 'you must not use lights in a way to dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horseriders. Phil -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 26/11/2012 13:50 Craig Wallace wrote: On 26/11/2012 11:25, Philip Barnes wrote: I think that is very country specific, not something that can be tagged worldwide. In the UK, beyond speed limits, there are no rule differences between urban and rural roads. However you have me curious, how do you see the rules as different? In the UK there are rules about using dipped headlights in built-up areas, plus not using the horn overnight. Not sure if there's any other rules. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
Hi, As I am against always changing the subject line of discussions, I resent with the original one. But it's also to add that, in my opinion, the tagging must respect the categories that the national law defines (our code de la route). There is no point in trying to forcefully adapt foreign concepts if they do not match. I don't think there's a concept of built-up area in the Belgian law and I don't think there's a difference in the definition of an agglomération whether it resides in a city or in a village (even if rural sounds like village, this is not poetry). This all, obviously, doesn't prevent a specific tag like a lower speed limit overriding the global one. (On 2012-11-26 18:21, A.Pirard.Papou wrote :) On 2012-11-23 22:58, Kytömaa Lauri wrote : If it's just the traffic rules urban vs. rural, there's the tag (with 37 000+ uses) zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban where ** is the two letter country code. On 2012-11-26 13:16, Marc Gemis wrote : country_code:context (where the speed limit is defined by a particular context, for example urban/rural/motorway/etc.) On 2012-11-26 16:41, Jo wrote : One week ago I had never heard of the zone:traffic tags. I didn't have a clue how one could tag streets as part of built-up area/city limits or out of it. For many years this is something I have been wanting to do though. So I was glad I finally learned how it could/should be done in one of the many discussions started by Papou. zone30 are mostly within built-up area, zone50 and zone70 aren't. I think it's important to distinguish between zoneXX and built-up area as they occur mostly independent from each other, so the namespaces also ought to be independent. We could use source:maxspeed=BE:zone30 instead of source:maxspeed=zone30, but since a street already gets zone:traffic=BE:urban/rural, the BE seems less important in the source:maxspeed tags. Great finding From Lauri indeed !!! But regarding this, where is the complete zone:traffic=BE:* list? (just one example) In Belgium, we have more than urban/rural/motorway/etc. http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/100-art2 default=*rural* agglomération=*urban* autoroute=*motorway* route pour automobile=*?* zone résidentielle=*?* zone de rencontre=*?* zone piétonne=*?* chemin réservé à la circulation des piétons, cyclistes et cavaliers=*?* rue réservée aux jeux=*?* Abords d'école= Zone 30=*?* Rue cyclable=*?* Each with their regulations details. I was lately sent to map an alleged Zone30 area and there was no Zone 30 but a /*zone résidentielle*/ which is equivalent maxspeed-wise but not other-wise (other-regulations-wise). If we had a tag such as *INCLUDE:BE:...:urban* etc. with which the programs would fetch all the relevant tags like *maxspeed* per zone type from a well known per country or WW (world wide) database object (1) then we would have a clear list and we could tell the government that they can change details any time without sending us to work everywhere. How could otherwise programs that are supposed to use the OSM data make sense of a such ever changing global notions without breaking them down to well-defined concepts such as speed, bicycles, etc... That would please both the global view and the piecewise one. Wouldn't that stop the zonebabel? Cheers, André. (1) for example some well-known BE relation that would contain a role=*zones* or *traffic* member to a relation that would similarly contain rural, urban, etc. pointers to nodes that would contain the tags ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
On 2012-11-22 16:57, Simone Saviolo wrote : 2012/11/21 A.Pirard.Papou a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com Hi, I wanted to map the agglomeration of my village and I am wondering again. [...] How do we tag agglomérations? Currently, with place=* and their relative info on a closed way. I have written a proposal which aims to change this tagging scheme: [1] However, on a second thought, what you talk about is probably a different concept. An agglomération has precise entry and exit points, marked by the city limit sign - in Italy it's the same. I know that many mappers don't want to have this defined by a polygon, arguing that this would force consumers to do a spatial query to understand what the speed limit is; however, the legal constraint also involves other restrictions (e.g., no honking), and a dedicated tag would work better in this sense. Hello everybody, According to my explanation (well, my government's definition), an agglomération is just a set of roads and hence not an area nor a multipolygon (there's no speed limit or parking restrictions in the meadows ;-)) but, as I stated it, a plain relation. Yet, for larger cities (without meadows ;-)) a multipolygon could be used to gather already made subareas the day OSM will go recursing (nesting), but what's outside the roads is undecided. The idea is that with a 30 driving rules list applying to an agglomération (some 10 practically), you'd better have a global idea of where it spans (e.g. highlight all its roads), entry/exit you speak of, rather than ask yourself and OSM the question for every new street you traverse. As well as for exceeding the speed limit, you can be booked in agglomérations for parking partly on the roadside, or on the wrong alternated side, not letting a bus leave its stop point, etc... Should there be a country-dependent agglomération tag, should the driving rules be tagged one by one and should they be tagged on every road or on a relation? Finally, should we try to tag everything or rather go and swim or play tennis? Cheers, André. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Urban_settlements ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
What I'm doing right now is tag the roads inside this zone with maxspeed=50 and source:maxspeed=city_limit. This doesn't fit entirely, as it doesn't only influence maxspeed. Maybe adding a tag city_limit=yes would be more appropriate? Besides there is a conflict when inside those city limits there is a zone30. I'm tagging those with maxspeed=30 and source:maxspeed=zone30. The zone30 also has some extra consequences, besides maxspeed though. Would it be more correct to use zone30=yes? We also have zone50 and zone70. I have been tagging the location of city_limit signs for several years now, but since we didn't have a tag for it, I simply used note=city limit or bebouwde kom (nl). I hope a proper way of tagging them will come from this discussion. Polyglot 2012/11/23 A.Pirard.Papou a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com On 2012-11-22 16:57, Simone Saviolo wrote : 2012/11/21 A.Pirard.Papou a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com Hi, I wanted to map the agglomeration of my village and I am wondering again. [...] How do we tag agglomérations? Currently, with place=* and their relative info on a closed way. I have written a proposal which aims to change this tagging scheme: [1] However, on a second thought, what you talk about is probably a different concept. An agglomération has precise entry and exit points, marked by the city limit sign - in Italy it's the same. I know that many mappers don't want to have this defined by a polygon, arguing that this would force consumers to do a spatial query to understand what the speed limit is; however, the legal constraint also involves other restrictions (e.g., no honking), and a dedicated tag would work better in this sense. Hello everybody, According to my explanation (well, my government's definition), an agglomération is just a set of roads and hence not an area nor a multipolygon (there's no speed limit or parking restrictions in the meadows ;-)) but, as I stated it, a plain relation. Yet, for larger cities (without meadows ;-)) a multipolygon could be used to gather already made subareas the day OSM will go recursing (nesting), but what's outside the roads is undecided. The idea is that with a 30 driving rules list applying to an agglomération (some 10 practically), you'd better have a global idea of where it spans (e.g. highlight all its roads), entry/exit you speak of, rather than ask yourself and OSM the question for every new street you traverse. As well as for exceeding the speed limit, you can be booked in agglomérations for parking partly on the roadside, or on the wrong alternated side, not letting a bus leave its stop point, etc... Should there be a country-dependent agglomération tag, should the driving rules be tagged one by one and should they be tagged on every road or on a relation? Finally, should we try to tag everything or rather go and swim or play tennis? Cheers, André. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Urban_settlements ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
The idea is that with a 30 driving rules list applying to an agglomération If it's just the traffic rules urban vs. rural, there's the tag (with 37 000+ uses) zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban where ** is the two letter country code. Don't count on anything ever deriving the rules (like maxspeed) from that tag, so tag the maxspeed anyway. If, on the other hand, it's about the area that is considered agglomerated, irrespective of the (not) implied traffic rules, there are probably/apparently different rules in every country for calculating the area, for example by buffering all residential buildings and combining the area formed by that operation. -- Alv ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
I'm a bit unhappy with the term urban instead of built-up or city_limit/city_limits. But it's better than source:maxspeed=city_limits, so I'll start using it. Hopefully it gets out of the proposed state one day, it was proposed in 2009 Jo 2012/11/23 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi The idea is that with a 30 driving rules list applying to an agglomération If it's just the traffic rules urban vs. rural, there's the tag (with 37 000+ uses) zone:traffic=**:rural zone:traffic=**:urban where ** is the two letter country code. Don't count on anything ever deriving the rules (like maxspeed) from that tag, so tag the maxspeed anyway. If, on the other hand, it's about the area that is considered agglomerated, irrespective of the (not) implied traffic rules, there are probably/apparently different rules in every country for calculating the area, for example by buffering all residential buildings and combining the area formed by that operation. -- Alv ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
2012/11/21 A.Pirard.Papou a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com Hi, I wanted to map the agglomeration of my village and I am wondering again. [...] How do we tag agglomérations? Currently, with place=* and their relative info on a closed way. I have written a proposal which aims to change this tagging scheme: [1] However, on a second thought, what you talk about is probably a different concept. An agglomération has precise entry and exit points, marked by the city limit sign - in Italy it's the same. I know that many mappers don't want to have this defined by a polygon, arguing that this would force consumers to do a spatial query to understand what the speed limit is; however, the legal constraint also involves other restrictions (e.g., no honking), and a dedicated tag would work better in this sense. Regards, Simone [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Urban_settlements ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
On mercredi 21 novembre 2012, A.Pirard.Papou wrote: Hi, Hi, OSM-talk-fr sounds like associating agglomération and speed limit. I don't think we do. A french agglomération implies some speed limits (bellow 50km/h) But speed limits doesn't imply you are in an agglomération. An agglomération is more than that, and I don't think there currently is an agreed way to tag them... However, at least in Belgium, the definition of agglomération is very strict Same here : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglom%C3%A9ration#France How is an agglomération tagged? I would suggest something in the place=something format + name=x And if the wiki doesn't give any clues, it might be that we just need someone writing a proposal and start discussing that matter. Is my reasoning correct that I should I make a relation containing the roads? Do you mean roads as member of a relation ? I wouldn't advise to do that, but maybe draw an area around the agglomeration, or, before that, start discussing it on the wiki. But how do I tag it so that software recognize it as an agglomération as described above??? When a new tag is created, chances are that no software will reconize it right away, but by explaining somewhere how you tagged it in a clear (and unambigous) way then everyone doing a software will know how to recognize it. Well, if I too consider just the speed limit, I see that Speed_limits http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits applies to roads, railways! and waterways!!! Not relations ! That's the current state of recommendation, but maybe we could start discussing it to see if that's a good idea to apply speed limits on roads inside a bounding polygon -- sly qui suis-je : http://sly.letuffe.org email perso : sylvain chez letuffe un point org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
On Wednesday 21 November 2012 20:52:50 sly (sylvain letuffe) wrote: That's the current state of recommendation, but maybe we could start discussing it to see if that's a good idea to apply speed limits on roads inside a bounding polygon Polygons are a bad idea to map built-up areas. It's not uncommon that there's a bridge where the road on top belongs to the built-up area, but the road below does not. Or tunnels going under a built-up area, with the tunnel itself not part of it. Ben ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
On 2012-11-21 21:26, Ben Laenen wrote : On Wednesday 21 November 2012 20:52:50 sly (sylvain letuffe) wrote: That's the current state of recommendation, but maybe we could start discussing it to see if that's a good idea to apply speed limits on roads inside a bounding polygon Polygons are a bad idea to map built-up areas. It's not uncommon that there's a bridge where the road on top belongs to the built-up area, but the road below does not. Or tunnels going under a built-up area, with the tunnel itself not part of it. Ben I didn't speak of a polygon (closed ways) but of a relation (a set of ways). A speed limit on the roads doesn't prevent you driving as fast as you want in the meadows ;-) Look at multilinestring, which I see as a swiss-knife way assembly. In my mind, such a relation is the way to assign the same tags to a collection of objects making a whole with regard to those tags. If we add recursion (nesting), which is very easy to do, that's powerful. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] agglomération
Hi, Le mercredi 21 novembre 2012 22:53:53, A.Pirard.Papou a écrit : Look at multilinestring, which I see as a swiss-knife way assembly. In my mind, such a relation is the way to assign the same tags to a collection of objects making a whole with regard to those tags. If we add recursion (nesting), which is very easy to do, that's powerful. You misunderstood the idea/goal behind the multilinestring proposal. It wasn't created to factorize tags of all members. It was used to record one real life feature made of 2 or more OSM way objects. (like a long river, a boundary between two countries all made of hundreds of ways) A key sentence has been added to avoid using it badly : Do not use it to group loose ways : Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories (like all path in a forest) Example : if the name is not the same for all those ways, then you'd better not use this relation What you are looking for is a category thing to group loose ways sharing a common property but relation weren't made for that : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories -- sly (sylvain letuffe) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
