Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Such as in the bicycle shop example ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys

This one has been discussed :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/service:bicycle

And it's totally different to the car version :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar#Tags_used_in_combination

That's why I think the (namespace) principle / "grammar" should be discussed
instead of inventing the wheel from scratch for every shop
(and having endless discussions about differences between slightly
different shops
instead of letting people express the details with an easy "grammar" /
"subkeys").

Am 03.09.2018 um 15:49 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> 2018-09-03 15:18 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM  >:
>
> The principle should be described in general (not only for rental and
> not only for one shop),
> as there's currently a mess with different formats (compare car /
> bicycle / motorcycle shops).
>
>
>
>
> speaking about "mess"; it is the result of people creating new
> webpages for unexisting features without discussion or notice, so that
> the result is often similar to what you created on the skateboarding
> page: board:type for skateboards where all existing values are
> actually typos for board_type of information boards.
>
> Discussing with other mappers prior to writing new stuff into the
> wiki, using the established procedures (proposal process), searching
> the wiki and taginfo before inventing tags, all this can help to avoid
> the mess.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-09-03 15:18 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM :

> The principle should be described in general (not only for rental and
> not only for one shop),
> as there's currently a mess with different formats (compare car /
> bicycle / motorcycle shops).




speaking about "mess"; it is the result of people creating new webpages for
unexisting features without discussion or notice, so that the result is
often similar to what you created on the skateboarding page: board:type for
skateboards where all existing values are actually typos for board_type of
information boards.

Discussing with other mappers prior to writing new stuff into the wiki,
using the established procedures (proposal process), searching the wiki and
taginfo before inventing tags, all this can help to avoid the mess.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Warin]

On 03/09/18 23:18, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:


The principle should be described in general (not only for rental and
not only for one shop),
as there's currently a mess with different formats (compare car /
bicycle / motorcycle shops).



+1


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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi,

"Doesn't need a semicolon, only the main activity gets amenity=*, see
examples"
is fine.

The principle should be described in general (not only for rental and
not only for one shop),
as there's currently a mess with different formats (compare car /
bicycle / motorcycle shops).

I think namespaces with : are more usual,
but technically it makes no difference.

And the question is whether the "main amenity" makes sense in this case.
Let's say I search a service which is usually already part of something
else (main key shop=* or similar)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcar_rental
--> then you'd need to search for several values, amenity=car_rental and
car_rental=*
shop=car
or
shop=rental
with
car:rental=yes
would IMHO be more stuctured.

I also don't understand what the prefix "service" in bicycle is good for
(to distinguish it from which other key "without service" ?)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle#Additional_keys

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 03.09.2018 um 12:19 schrieb Hufkratzer:
> On 2.9.2018 22:06 Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
>> {...]
>> The current namespace article doesn't mention underscores :
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace#Example_namespace_uses
>
> I think it doesn't have to, the underscore can just be a part of a key
> or a value like any letter [a-z] can.
>
>> The amenity=* version is IMHO the worst possibility (in case of several
>> "amenities")
>> as you could just work with semicolon separator,
>> which isn't recommended : [...]
>
> Doesn't need a semicolon, only the main activity gets amenity=*, see
> examples:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3880444689 :
> amenity=restaurant
> horse_rental=yes
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1563976033 :
> amenity=fuel
> car_rental=yes
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2356973972 :
> amenity=boat_rental
> bicycle_rental=yes
> dinghi_rental=yes
> motorboat_rental=yes
> pedalboat_rental=yes
>
> If you want to search for all car_rental's you have to search for
> amenity=car_rental (main activity) and for car_rental=yes (secondary
> activity). This is uncomfortable, but the  rendering
> depends on the main activity, therefore the distinction is necessary.
> Isn't it?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Hufkratzer]

On 2.9.2018 22:06 Thilo Haug OSM wrote:

{...]
The current namespace article doesn't mention underscores :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace#Example_namespace_uses


I think it doesn't have to, the underscore can just be a part of a key 
or a value like any letter [a-z] can.



The amenity=* version is IMHO the worst possibility (in case of several
"amenities")
as you could just work with semicolon separator,
which isn't recommended : [...]


Doesn't need a semicolon, only the main activity gets amenity=*, see 
examples:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3880444689 :
amenity=restaurant
horse_rental=yes

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1563976033 :
amenity=fuel
car_rental=yes

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2356973972 :
amenity=boat_rental
bicycle_rental=yes
dinghi_rental=yes
motorboat_rental=yes
pedalboat_rental=yes

If you want to search for all car_rental's you have to search for 
amenity=car_rental (main activity) and for car_rental=yes (secondary 
activity). This is uncomfortable, but the  rendering
depends on the main activity, therefore the distinction is necessary. 
Isn't it?



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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Sep 2018, at 22:06, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I don't have a general preference about the format,


Would you mind moving all your proposals into the proposal section of the wiki? 
You should also refrain from linking to them from the tag definition pages as 
if they were common combinations.

It is confusing for new users to find these tags, they might not look at the 
usage numbers and mistake them for established tagging.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi,

I don't have a general preference about the format,
but I think it should be possible to express several things to rent
(buy/repair etc.)
and it should be easily be possible to filter for all these items
(regardless whether it's a shop/hotel/farm).

So the format should be flexible enough to allow this.
I think it's easier to read (for humans) when the "subject" is in front,
so all the related characteristics are "listed".

There are several existing namespaces using this format :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Commonly_used_subkeys
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility:for
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:generator:output
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane#Examples

An example for the underscore format :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seamarks/Seamark_Objects

The current namespace article doesn't mention underscores :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace#Example_namespace_uses

The amenity=* version is IMHO the worst possibility (in case of several
"amenities")
as you could just work with semicolon separator,
which isn't recommended :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator#When_NOT_to_use
I think this is an overcome way to express simple things from a time
when POIs weren't in focus
(which meanwhile changes with OsmAnd, maps.me, komoot
and other popular apps which allow to use the data not only for pure
navigation).

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 02.09.2018 um 15:37 schrieb Hufkratzer:
> It looks like you didn't understand me. I am sorry that my English is
> so bad. I am trying to express my question in a different way:
>
> We have some differnet ways to tag a bicycle rental:
> a) amenity=bicycle_rental (30k uses), bicycle_rental=yes (< 20 uses)
> b) rental=bicycle (< 300 uses) (rental:bicycle=yes not used)
> c) bicycle:rental=yes (< 40 uses) (links to shop=rental)
>
> ... and a boat rental;
> a) amenity=boat_rental (2k uses), boat_rental=yes (< 10 uses)
> b) rental=boat (< 50 uses) (rental:boat=yes not used)
> c) boat:rental=yes (< 20 uses) (links to shop=rental)
>
> Now we are looking for the best way to tag a place where horses are
> for rent.
>
> The corresponding current numbers for horse rentals are:
> a) amenity=horse_rental : 5 uses, horse_rental=yes : 1 use
> b) rental=horse : 5 uses (rental:horse=yes not used)
> c) horse:rental=yes : 1 use (links to shop=rental)
>
> I wrote that I think the best way would be
> a) amenity=horse_rental or horse_rental=yes (if secondary activity)
> and wrote I don't like
> c) horse:rental=yes
> for the following reasons:
> - horses are usually not sold nor rented in shops
> - horses are no vehicles and no equipment and shop=rental is for these
> - amenity=horse_rental is like how car, bicycle. and boat rentals are
> usually tagged
>
> Why doyou nevertheless prefer to tag a horse rental with b)
> rental=horse rather than with a) amenoty=horse_rental or with
> horse_rental=yes? Why should we propose to tag them in a differnt way
> than bicycle or boat rentals? I think this would be unnecessarily
> confusing. Thanks.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 at 23:38, Hufkratzer  wrote:

> I am sorry that my English is so bad.


Your English is fine!


> I wrote that I think the best way would be
> a) amenity=horse_rental or horse_rental=yes (if secondary activity)
> and wrote I don't like
> c) horse:rental=yes
>

 I'm sorry, my fault in that I didn't go back & check how you had worded
it. :-(

I was agreeing with your suggestion of amenity=horse_rental, but I wrote it
down incorrectly!

Sorry about that.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Hufkratzer]

It looks like you didn't understand me. I am sorry that my English is so 
bad. I am trying to express my question in a different way:


We have some differnet ways to tag a bicycle rental:
a) amenity=bicycle_rental (30k uses), bicycle_rental=yes (< 20 uses)
b) rental=bicycle (< 300 uses) (rental:bicycle=yes not used)
c) bicycle:rental=yes (< 40 uses) (links to shop=rental)

... and a boat rental;
a) amenity=boat_rental (2k uses), boat_rental=yes (< 10 uses)
b) rental=boat (< 50 uses) (rental:boat=yes not used)
c) boat:rental=yes (< 20 uses) (links to shop=rental)

Now we are looking for the best way to tag a place where horses are for 
rent.


The corresponding current numbers for horse rentals are:
a) amenity=horse_rental : 5 uses, horse_rental=yes : 1 use
b) rental=horse : 5 uses (rental:horse=yes not used)
c) horse:rental=yes : 1 use (links to shop=rental)

I wrote that I think the best way would be
a) amenity=horse_rental or horse_rental=yes (if secondary activity)
and wrote I don't like
c) horse:rental=yes
for the following reasons:
- horses are usually not sold nor rented in shops
- horses are no vehicles and no equipment and shop=rental is for these
- amenity=horse_rental is like how car, bicycle. and boat rentals are 
usually tagged


Why doyou nevertheless prefer to tag a horse rental with b) rental=horse 
rather than with a) amenoty=horse_rental or with horse_rental=yes? Why 
should we propose to tag them in a differnt way than bicycle or boat 
rentals? I think this would be unnecessarily confusing. Thanks.



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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 at 00:26, Hufkratzer  wrote:

> One can rent a horse for trail riding, guided or unguided, or for riding
> inside of an enclosed area, with or without a teacher. One can do this for
> just an hour or for several days and also with  horse.drawn caravans, see
> these example webpages:
> -  http://www.sombrerohorses.com 
>  - http://www.irishhorsedrawncaravans.com/Horses.htm
> 
>
> What else than "horse rental" is there to call it?
>

Beautiful!

Thanks for that - hadn't heard of those concepts before :-)

Yes, by those examples horse=rental would probably be the best option.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Hufkratzer]

As far as horses are concerned, in
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/038781.html
I wrote: "If the horse rental is only a secondary activity it may be 
tagged horse_rental=yes (with underline, currently used once) instead of 
horse:rental=yes (with colon), analogously to what is written on the 
wiki pages for amenity=animal_boarding and amenity=animal_breeding, for 
example."


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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Thilo Haug OSM]

And what if a touristic item (farm, hotel, shop...)
offers several things to rent ?
Let's say horses, bicycles, jetski ?

Am 01.09.2018 um 16:25 schrieb Hufkratzer:
> On 1.9.2018 02:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 09:03, Hufkratzer > > wrote:
>>
>> I think a better alternative would be to use
>> amenity=horse_rental, this
>> is currently used 5 times, this would be analogous to
>> amenity=car_rental, amenity=bicycle_rental and amenity=boat_rental. 
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if horse rental would really be an appropriate term?
>>
>> If you rent a car, bike or boat, then you decide where to go, but if
>> you're "renting" a horse, you're paying to join an organised trail
>> ride of some form, you're not renting a horse to ride off into the
>> sunset & return it tomorrow!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>  
> One can rent a horse for trail riding, guided or unguided, or for
> riding inside of an enclosed area, with or without a teacher. One can
> do this for just an hour or for several days and also with 
> horse.drawn caravans, see these example webpages:
> -  http://www.sombrerohorses.com
>  - http://www.irishhorsedrawncaravans.com/Horses.htm
>
> What else than "horse rental" is there to call it?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Hufkratzer]

On 1.9.2018 02:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 09:03, Hufkratzer > wrote:


I think a better alternative would be to use amenity=horse_rental,
this
is currently used 5 times, this would be analogous to
amenity=car_rental, amenity=bicycle_rental and amenity=boat_rental.


I'm not sure if horse rental would really be an appropriate term?

If you rent a car, bike or boat, then you decide where to go, but if 
you're "renting" a horse, you're paying to join an organised trail 
ride of some form, you're not renting a horse to ride off into the 
sunset & return it tomorrow!


Thanks

Graeme
One can rent a horse for trail riding, guided or unguided, or for riding 
inside of an enclosed area, with or without a teacher. One can do this 
for just an hour or for several days and also with horse.drawn caravans, 
see these example webpages:

-  http://www.sombrerohorses.com
 - http://www.irishhorsedrawncaravans.com/Horses.htm

What else than "horse rental" is there to call it?
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 09:03, Hufkratzer  wrote:

> I think a better alternative would be to use amenity=horse_rental, this
> is currently used 5 times, this would be analogous to
> amenity=car_rental, amenity=bicycle_rental and amenity=boat_rental.
>

I'm not sure if horse rental would really be an appropriate term?

If you rent a car, bike or boat, then you decide where to go, but if you're
"renting" a horse, you're paying to join an organised trail ride of some
form, you're not renting a horse to ride off into the sunset & return it
tomorrow!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Sep 2018, at 01:02, Hufkratzer  wrote:
> 
> I think these numbers do not justify an explanation on a main wiki page, the 
> new tags may be proposed on a proposal page.


Yesterday I’ve found a similar problem created by the same user: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Asport%3Dskateboard=revision=1644091=1542362

I suggest you revert this edit. For unused/unestablished tags the way to 
document them is via the proposal process.

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