Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On 03/04/2011 09:55, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2011/4/2 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com mailto:dave...@madasafish.com Tracktype is verifiable against a visual scale: http://wiki.openstreetmcan't givap.org/wiki/Tracktype http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tracktype but as it depends much on the climate and surface material / vegatation / ground it still has to be adopted to the local situation. The photos work well in the UK / Germany, but can't be blindly used all over the globe, descriptions are not worse for this. As I said, guessing is not useful for OSM, so smoothness, as it's implemented at the moment is, to use one of it's adjective tags - horrible. It needs a photo related grading scale similar to tracktype. there is one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness Yeah..., but as I said the values are rubbish. I mean, horrible to whom? A person with a pram might describe it so, but a mountain biker would probably love it. A numerical grade would be much a much better solution. Please take advice from the vast majority of repliers drop this proposal. I'm taking slowly, but still got positive feedbacks. And most majority was worried about the legal sidetrack, didn't you notice? Hardly surprising when your proposed tag is 'illegal'! what part of illegal is subjective? IMHO it is quite objective: anything against the law is illegal. There are many disagreements where land area or borders are contested with each side claiming it illegal. They can't both be right. My fear is that this adjective tag will be used without it being proved in law. Illegal is a subjective adjective has no place in the physical world of OSM. Again, please drop this proposal. OSM is not only about the physical world. THere is so many counter examples I don't even have to name one... There may be examples in use, but that doesn't make it right. It's not a valid reason to add another to them. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 13:50, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: what part of illegal is subjective? IMHO it is quite objective: anything against the law is illegal. There are many disagreements where land area or borders are contested with each side claiming it illegal. They can't both be right. My fear is that this adjective tag will be used without it being proved in law. What if I'd replace the word illegal with unauthorised or unofficial? (Still, the point is to provide useful data. I took some time to check around the OSM policies and FAQ and stuff and it says that OSM is a database about geographical facts [I do not avoid this word and I consider my/our judgement a good base for factuality] for many known and any possible yet unknown purposes in which it would turned to be useful.) There may be examples in use, but that doesn't make it right. It's not a valid reason to add another to them. Your argument was that OSM does not possess such tags at all, so I should drop the subject. Now you say that it does indeed contain such tags but I don't have the right to do the same anyway so I should drop the subject. :-) No, I do not have any rights to any discussion, whatsoever, as neither have anyone, and obviously I have the right to use whatever tag I please. Discussions are usually to help people to make informed decisions. Unfortunately your input not really added much new information to the subject, apart from repeating others and commanding me. No offense. I tend to agree though that rendering-wise this tag doesn't work, and I'm not sure where to proceed; creating separate amenity=illegal_waste_dump and such doesn't feels nice. -- byte-byte, grin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Peter Gervai grin...@gmail.com wrote: What if I'd replace the word illegal with unauthorised or unofficial? unofficial is ambiguous (something can be unofficial/informal but legal). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On 04/04/2011 15:10, Peter Gervai wrote: What if I'd replace the word illegal with unauthorised or unofficial? (Still, the point is to provide useful data. I took some time to check around the OSM policies and FAQ and stuff and it says that OSM is a database about geographical facts [I do not avoid this word and I consider my/our judgement a good base for factuality] But it's not /geographical/! for many known and any possible yet unknown purposes in which it would turned to be useful.) There may be examples in use, but that doesn't make it right. It's not a valid reason to add another to them. Your argument was that OSM does not possess such tags at all, Really?! Where did I say that? so I should drop the subject. Now you say that it does indeed contain such tags but I don't have the right to do the same anyway so I should drop the subject. :-) Two wrongs don't make a right! Saying it's OK to add bad data because there's already bad data is a really bad idea. No, I do not have any rights to any discussion, whatsoever, as neither have anyone, and obviously I have the right to use whatever tag I please. Discussions are usually to help people to make informed decisions. Unfortunately your input not really added much new information to the subject, apart from repeating others and commanding me. No offense. Hmm... It seems you're the one that been repeating oneself, even after many people believe it's a bad idea. This hasn't been much of a discussion because it appears to don't listen/read very well. I tend to agree though that rendering-wise this tag doesn't work, and I'm not sure where to proceed; creating separate amenity=illegal_waste_dump and such doesn't feels nice. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
2011/4/2 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com Tracktype is verifiable against a visual scale: http://wiki.openstreetmcan't givap.org/wiki/Tracktypehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tracktype but as it depends much on the climate and surface material / vegatation / ground it still has to be adopted to the local situation. The photos work well in the UK / Germany, but can't be blindly used all over the globe, descriptions are not worse for this. As I said, guessing is not useful for OSM, so smoothness, as it's implemented at the moment is, to use one of it's adjective tags - horrible. It needs a photo related grading scale similar to tracktype. there is one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness Please take advice from the vast majority of repliers drop this proposal. I'm taking slowly, but still got positive feedbacks. And most majority was worried about the legal sidetrack, didn't you notice? Hardly surprising when your proposed tag is 'illegal'! what part of illegal is subjective? IMHO it is quite objective: anything against the law is illegal. Illegal is a subjective adjective has no place in the physical world of OSM. Again, please drop this proposal. OSM is not only about the physical world. THere is so many counter examples I don't even have to name one... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On 02/04/2011 06:48, Peter Gervai wrote: On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 01:09, Dave F.dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Guessing has no place in OSM. What about smoothness? tracktype? (operator for that matter? how many checks official company papers?) Err... Operator is verifiable, whether it's done is an entirely different subject. Tracktype is verifiable against a visual scale: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tracktype As I said, guessing is not useful for OSM, so smoothness, as it's implemented at the moment is, to use one of it's adjective tags - horrible. It needs a photo related grading scale similar to tracktype. Back on subject: Just because other tags unfortunately use subjective guesswork doesn't give you the right to do the same. Please take advice from the vast majority of repliers drop this proposal. I'm taking slowly, but still got positive feedbacks. And most majority was worried about the legal sidetrack, didn't you notice? Hardly surprising when your proposed tag is 'illegal'! So what if a the dumps/houses/graveyards are illegal? That has nothing to do with OSM. As others have pointed out OSM is a geographic map. Tag what you see on the ground. Illegal is a subjective adjective has no place in the physical world of OSM. Again, please drop this proposal. Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:56:50 +200 Peter Gervai grin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 13:56, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Serge 2. Carries a lot of weight. It's a serious thing to accuse Serge someone/something of being illegal. PeterI disagree, please help to find a different word then. How about, de facto, unofficial, unauthorized or informal? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 15:45, McGuire, Matthew matt.mcgu...@metc.state.mn.us wrote: Serge 2. Carries a lot of weight. It's a serious thing to accuse Serge someone/something of being illegal. PeterI disagree, please help to find a different word then. How about, de facto, unofficial, unauthorized or informal? I like unofficial, and unauthorised (sp :)) even more. I'll update the wiki page. Thanks, Peter ps: ah you see, having a mother tongue is way different. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On 01/04/2011 23:46, Peter Gervai wrote: I like unofficial, and unauthorised (sp :)) even more. I'll update the wiki page. But, related to your original proposal, that's still subjective guess work. Guessing has no place in OSM. Please take advice from the vast majority of repliers drop this proposal. Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] landuse: illegal and illegal:yes/no
On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 01:09, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Guessing has no place in OSM. What about smoothness? tracktype? (operator for that matter? how many checks official company papers?) Please take advice from the vast majority of repliers drop this proposal. I'm taking slowly, but still got positive feedbacks. And most majority was worried about the legal sidetrack, didn't you notice? Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
