Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
On 14:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC), [[User:Ypid|Ypid]] wrote : I am not sure if we need two syntax diagrams. Sorry that the syntax diagram I added to the Wiki ([[Key:opening_hours:specification]]) was not so obvious. Oh yes, OSM taggers badly need an easier to read syntax diagram. I spent more that one hour figuring how to tag the most simple Opening Hours rule there is, reading four times almost the whole OH=* page, which is a lot. There is no doubt that other taggers would have given up adding that tag in less than one minute. That's why I made the diagram. Because I now realized that, although translating the whole page, my diagram is incomplete compared to the hidden diagram, I changed the title to Simplified Syntax diagram and a good idea would be to simplify it even more while still covering 95% of the cases, because my main conclusion is that there is complete misunderstanding. I met ten different opinions regarding key points such as usage of '24/7, the meaning and the necessity of off and what is the initial state of the logic, open or closed. I realized that nobody knew the existence of the open and closed tokens for the simple reason that, no more that the initial state, they don't appear in the OH=* page and that people wouldn't take time to read the full diagram in addition to a whole page anyway, unless to clarify some point. So, I added open and closed to the simplified diagram. But most of all, if you really want programs to use that tag, make the rules very strict and not a fuzzy matter as the general tone about discussing this tag was, like discussing many tags in general. (OSM even refuses to label the keys as objects or attributes because, they say, it's a matter of each tagger's opinion !!! ) In short: if you want taggers to use Opening Hours, yes I urge you to keep a Simplified Diagram and if you want them to do it all in the same correct way and programs to use it, make sure it is correct (and maybe write an Osmose plugin: they and everybody will appreciate). I hope this will be my last contribution to OH; many other things to do. Anybody's opinion? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
Following my message that my Simplified Opening Hours syntax diagram http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours#Simplified_syntax_diagram is needed for taggers to achieve 95% of such tags correctly in a reasonable time and, most of all, that data consumers understand what they tagged, I have simplified even more and added a clear description of intent. I have some remarks about the modification to this footnote: 1. ↑ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours#cite_ref-always_1-0 if all ranges are followed by off, an initial always period is assumed. *(Not true for any implementation that I know of. -- **User:Ypid http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ypid**)* * It seems to confuse specification and discussion page. * It would be more interesting to say what is true instead of what is not true. * implementations: not clear: implementations of what? * must the tagger follow unspecified implementations or this specification? * it's the fifth different opinion I hear about this essential matter and a simple tag * in consequence, as there was no clear specification, I followed the most probable advice *Fr 14:00-22:00 off* which both seemed to make sense and is what is written on the sign plate * But, after more than 15 days, not a reasonable time for a simple tag, I am still uncertain * I think that the data consumer programs such as Osmand must be as puzzled as the taggers For the success of Opening Hours (and OSM), I recommend clear specifications and my corrected diagram which is something that should be followed step by step, avoiding searching a needle in a haystack. I am waiting for an announcement of a correct Opening Hours page to put my tags right definitely; I won't change them on each different personal opinion any more. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: If not, how about a new icon for effectively but not literally 24/7? But I want coffee at 4:50! We need a 24/7 icon that sort of shimmers and disappears 3.125% of the time. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.comwrote: There are quite a few Starbucks locations that Starbucks themselves consider 24 hour stores, but which actually have stated hours of 04:30-03:15. Is this close enough to 24/7 that perhaps it should still get the 24/7 icon? Well, by that definition, TriMet runs 24/7 (stations open 20 minutes before the first departure and close at 3:15AM regardless of last arrival, IIRC). If not, how about a new icon for effectively but not literally 24/7? But I want coffee at 4:50! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
Hi André, Am Sonntag, 20. Oktober 2013, 19:19:35 schrieb André Pirard: […loads of quoted text…] please do not quote an entire conversation on top of your reply, otherwise people have a hard time finding your actual reply. No, that is completely wrong. 24/7 is *not* meant to be used as a building block. Where is that explained and is it correctly explained if readers understand it completely wrong? The wiki states If it is 24 hours 7 days a week [opening_hours] has a specific value: 24/7. this way it can render a specific icon. IMHO, the first thing in this discussion is to define what off means. The first thing in this discussion is to *grasp* the meaning of off, not *define* it. off has been in use for quite some time already. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains explains quite well how the overall opening_hours syntax works. Before I added my diagram, the only things one could find is vague things like that a weekday off is wd off. After adding my diagram, one can at last read a definition of off to which everyone agreed: who is everyone? Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
On 2013-10-21 19:07, Eckhart Wörner wrote : Hi André, Am Sonntag, 20. Oktober 2013, 19:19:35 schrieb André Pirard: No, that is completely wrong. 24/7 is *not* meant to be used as a building block. Where is that explained and is it correctly explained if readers understand it completely wrong? The wiki states If it is 24 hours 7 days a week [opening_hours] has a specific value: 24/7. this way it can render a specific icon. I had understood that 24/7 doesn't allow exceptions and I wrote my diagram accordingly. Someone said it can (in the quote that you removed), nobody denied that so I changed my diagram accordingly. And then I was told that *I am* completely wrong instead of that I was right. IMHO, the first thing in this discussion is to define what off means. The first thing in this discussion is to *grasp* the meaning of off, not *define* it. off has been in use for quite some time already. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains explains quite well how the overall opening_hours syntax works. A precise definition is always needed, especially when different people are grasping differently, especially to the point of saying that off is optional and 24/7 a building block. You may notice that, precisely, off overrides what is preceding it and not what is following it. The definitions need to be where they're needed, not in other documents or in people's head. You're absolutely right that Time domain explanation is quite well. The only problem is that it should be at the beginning of Key_opening_hours but that the latter does not even link to it. I have added a sentence to draw the reader's attention on two key documents I was lucky to find before he tackles decoding this one. Fuzzy rules are unfortunately a spread disease of OSM, especially traffic rules tags sending cars where they shouldn't go or pedestrians/bicycles on a needless 3 km detour. I'm having a hard, disappointing time with that. Computers using tags do not grasp. They follow well defined rules. I hope that the JOSM/Plugins/OpeningHoursEditor http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/OpeningHoursEditor bug will be corrected and that it will be improved because it's what taggers jump on instead of reading (nice making a button to switch between adding and subtracting mode). I hope that my fast-to-read diagram will be appreciated. I have to move on to those other concerns now. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Eckhart Wörner wrote: The wiki states If it is 24 hours 7 days a week [opening_hours] has a specific value: 24/7. this way it can render a specific icon. There are quite a few Starbucks locations that Starbucks themselves consider 24 hour stores, but which actually have stated hours of 04:30-03:15. Is this close enough to 24/7 that perhaps it should still get the 24/7 icon? If not, how about a new icon for effectively but not literally 24/7? -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
Hi André, Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2013, 22:30:44 schrieb André Pirard: I've had multiple difficulties described here https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/9085 coding a simple opening-hours always except one period. opening_hours=00:00-24:00; Fr 00:00-14:00,22:00-00:00 Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
Hi Janko, Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2013, 22:54:04 schrieb Janko Mihelić: 24/7;Fr 00:00-14:00,22:00-24:00 No, that is completely wrong. 24/7 is *not* meant to be used as a building block. I wouldn't use off, I'm not sure a lot of data consumers consider it. To my knowledge, all data consumers consider it. (However, off is not useful in the discussed case.) Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
On 2013-10-19 22:30, André Pirard wrote : Hi, I've had multiple difficulties described here coding a simple opening-hours "always except one period". OpeningHoursEdit bugs and not finding how to represent "always" after reading the whole lot several times. Normally, always is 24/7 but I suspect protest against 24/7 + "off" time. So, I bet that nothing preceding "period off" means always. And, as you probably noticed that I don't take OSM as a betting game, I'm asking confirmation. As it takes much time "reading the whole lot several times", I added a more conventional syntax diagram as a synoptic. Please check it and see what must remain of the rest and how. Feel free to add as many (n) references as needed behind any diagram line to text below it. But please do not crowd the diagram with the text itself again, thanks. On 2013-10-20 03:00, André Pirard wrote : Hi, Thanks for your replies. On 2013-10-19 22:54, Janko Mihelić wrote : I think the best solution for your problem is: 24/7;Fr 00:00-14:00,22:00-24:00 I wouldn't use "off", I'm not sure a lot of data consumers consider it. OK, I changed the diagram to accept 24/7 that way. But not using "off" means that the period is open, not closed. On 2013-10-19 22:54, Charles Basenga Kiyanda wrote : If I understand the opening_hours wiki page correctly you're missing a semicolon and the correct input should be: opening_hours=24/7; Fr 14:00-22:00 off Does that work? Ouch, the missing semicolon is a typo in my report, it was in the tag. "working"? That's a convention. Regarding OpeningHoursEdit, it first complains about "24/7;" and if I remove it, about the rest. 2 bugs. Alternatively, omitting the 24/7 part would be correct as it's implied if the off range is not preceded by anything opening_hours=Fr 14:00-22:00 off I finally chose to be kind reveal a single bug that way. I prefer this also because fear the rendered to display a 24/7 icon even if the hours are shortened as above. On 2013-10-20 16:06, Eckhart Wörner wrote : Hi Janko, Am Samstag, 19. Oktober 2013, 22:54:04 schrieb Janko Mihelić: 24/7;Fr 00:00-14:00,22:00-24:00 No, that is completely wrong. 24/7 is *not* meant to be used as a building block. Where is that explained and is it correctly explained if readers understand it "completely wrong"? I wouldn't use "off", I'm not sure a lot of data consumers consider it. To my knowledge, all data consumers consider it. (However, "off" is not useful in the discussed case.) IMHO, "off" must not be used because data consumers consider it but because it means something that has to be said. IMHO, the first thing in this discussion is to define what "off" means. Before I added my diagram, the only things one could find is vague things like that a weekday off is wd off. After adding my diagram, one can at last read a definition of "off" to which everyone agreed: off: closing time that overrides previous opening time; if the first range is off, an initial 24/7 is assumed IMVHO, closing time is not the same as opening time, the said period is closing time and then, contrary to what you say, off is not only useful but necessary after "Fr 00:00-14:00,22:00-24:00" because it would mean opening time without it. And, once again, please realize that, unlike the presence of a tree but much like traffic rules, it's not a question of vague usefulness but of strict necessity so that a POI search program or simply the map do not list as open a facility that's closed. FYI, I have read that a GPS software or something is using my tags. That's why I'm taking them seriously. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
I think the best solution for your problem is: 24/7;Fr 00:00-14:00,22:00-24:00 I wouldn't use off, I'm not sure a lot of data consumers consider it. Janko 2013/10/19 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com Hi, I've had multiple difficulties described herehttps://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/9085coding a simple opening-hours always except one period. OpeningHoursEdit bugs and not finding how to represent always after reading the whole lot several times. Normally, always is 24/7 but I suspect protest against 24/7 + off time. So, I bet that nothing preceding period off means always. And, as you probably noticed that I don't take OSM as a betting game, I'm asking confirmation. As it takes much time reading the whole lot several times, I added a more conventional syntax diagram as a synoptic. Please check it and see what must remain of the rest and how. Feel free to add as many (n) references as needed behind any diagram line to text below it. But please do not crowd the diagram with the text itself again, thanks. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
If I understand the opening_hours wiki page correctly you're missing a semicolon and the correct input should be: opening_hours=24/7; Fr 14:00-22:00 off Does that work? Alternatively, omitting the 24/7 part would be correct as it's implied if the off range is not preceded by anything opening_hours=Fr 14:00-22:00 off Personally I'm a fan of explicit rules. Charles André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] opening-hours: how to code always but...? Syntax diagram.
Hi, Thanks for your replies. On 2013-10-19 22:54, Janko Mihelić wrote : I think the best solution for your problem is: 24/7;Fr 00:00-14:00,22:00-24:00 I wouldn't use off, I'm not sure a lot of data consumers consider it. OK, I changed the diagram to accept 24/7 that way. But not using off means that the period is open, not closed. On 2013-10-19 22:54, Charles Basenga Kiyanda wrote : If I understand the opening_hours wiki page correctly you're missing a semicolon and the correct input should be: opening_hours=24/7; Fr 14:00-22:00 off Does that work? Ouch, the missing semicolon is a typo in my report, it was in the tag. working? That's a convention. Regarding OpeningHoursEdit, it first complains about 24/7; and if I remove it, about the rest. 2 bugs. Alternatively, omitting the 24/7 part would be correct as it's implied if the off range is not preceded by anything opening_hours=Fr 14:00-22:00 off I finally chose to be kind reveal a single bug that way. I prefer this also because fear the rendered to display a 24/7 icon even if the hours are shortened as above. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
