Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 08:19:16AM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 21:32, ael via Tagging > wrote: > > I invented the shop=trade after a suggestion on this list to consider > > subtags. > > > I was thinking about it & wondered about changing shop=trade to > shop=trade_supply (which may be a more accurate description anyway?) Not keen on that, and it would change existing usage. > I'm wondering if it would be? > > We'd have shop=trade_supply + trade=electrical for the wholesale outlet, shop=trade was not intended just for wholesale. There are many retailers who also have special services for various trades. The tag was explicitly meant to include those sorts of places. > But perhaps business=plumbing could work and would be simpler? > > I have always thought it odd that "business" was not used much as a tag. > > Many of the uses of "office" seem to me to really mean "business". > > > > That's not a bad thought either! > > > > That could even be > > business=trade trade=plumbing > > if people think that business alone is to all encompassing. But it is > > probably best to keep it simple. > > > > Could be done either way. My preference on reflection. I don't think the multiple use of the trade tag should cause any problems, especially since the semantics is very similar. But I haven't given it much thought, so I could be wrong. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 21:32, ael via Tagging wrote: > > The only term that crossed my mind was specialisation but that > doesn't really fit. Good thought, but I'd agree no, not quite right. > I invented the shop=trade after a suggestion on this list to consider > subtags. I was thinking about it & wondered about changing shop=trade to shop=trade_supply (which may be a more accurate description anyway?) The sub-tag could then also become trade_supply= or stay as trade= > Hence my concern that the re-use of trade might be confusing. I'm wondering if it would be? We'd have shop=trade_supply + trade=electrical for the wholesale outlet, with trade=electrician on the factory unit / shed / yard / house that they work from. Do they even have to be different words? Could both places be the same eg trade=electrical for the actual tradie or trade=electrician for the wholesaler? But perhaps business=plumbing could work and would be simpler? > I have always thought it odd that "business" was not used much as a tag. > Many of the uses of "office" seem to me to really mean "business". > That's not a bad thought either! > That could even be > business=trade trade=plumbing > if people think that business alone is to all encompassing. But it is > probably best to keep it simple. > Could be done either way. Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 09:18:52AM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > wrote: > > > > I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could work. > Open for any thoughts or suggestions of a better word! The only term that crossed my mind was specialisation but that doesn't really fit. I invented the shop=trade after a suggestion on this list to consider subtags. Hence my concern that the re-use of trade might be confusing. But something like business=trade, trade=plumbing might work. As long as data consumers have no problems parsing that. But perhaps business=plumbing could work and would be simpler? I have always thought it odd that "business" was not used much as a tag. Many of the uses of "office" seem to me to really mean "business". That could even be business=trade trade=plumbing if people think that business alone is to all encompassing. But it is probably best to keep it simple. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
I agree that the "craft" key should be used for places where craft work is done. It seems that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acraft%3Dplumber craft=plumber is already fairly well established with 4000 uses, and the page has been around since 2011. While "craft" seems imprecise for offices of tradespersons who do not make things at that location, it would be more confusing to reuse the key "trade". I'd thought that "office=" might work as a key, but "office=plumber" is only used 5 times. The page for "craft" shows that a number of different trades are included: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:craft - eg craft = builder, carpet_layer, chimney_sweeper, electrician, hvac, insulation, etc.. On 3/27/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Thanks everyone! > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 21:00, ael via Tagging > wrote: > >> >> I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could >> work. > > > Open for any thoughts or suggestions of a better word! > > What do you call the place that a tradesman (sorry, ladies!) works out of? > The "place" that he stores his equipment, is his registered trading > address, where his business mail is delivered, that (probably) isn't open > to the general public to come & visit - it could even be his home, *if* he > has a sign out the front to say "Fred Smith, Electrical Contractor" > > Maybe tradesman tradesperson=boatbuilder; builder; electrician? > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 23:46, Lionel Giard wrote: > >> Keep in mind that there is already the tags "man_made=works" + >> "products=*" for industrial scale production. Like the example of a >> brewery >> that can be tagged as craft=brewery (when small) or via man_made=works + >> product=beer (when industrial). >> > > That's another one I was thinking of & the same applies to =distillery > > >> To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft" >> guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production >> there). :-) >> > > No, I agree it can't. > > Maybe we could specify that shop=trade + trade= must include "supply / > supplies" eg shop=trade + trade=plumbing_supplies, for the wholesaler that > carries all the different sizes of pipe, taps & other fittings? ATM, > there's a mixture eg =building_supplies but also =plumbing: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade > > That would leave trade=plumber for the shed that they work out of. > > On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 01:13, Kevin Kenny wrote: > >> >> Around my workplace, the bargaining units use 'craft' and 'trade' >> pretty much interchangeably. A plumber, electrician, millwright, >> draughtsman, machinist, ... might be referred to as either a >> 'craftsman' or 'tradesman'. >> >> I know that 'craft' sometimes carries the small-scale, bespoke-work >> connotation, as in 'hand-crafted' but I'm not too uncomfortable with >> describing carpentry (even framing work), masonry or steamfitting as >> 'crafts'. > > > I understand what you're saying, Kevin, & to a certain extent agree with > you, although I think there are still fine lines - a carpenter is > definitely a tradie, a cabinet maker could be a tradie if they just > assemble flat-packs, but a craftsman if they do fine, precision work, while > a woodturner is a craftsman. > > Thanks > > Graeme > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
Thanks everyone! On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 21:00, ael via Tagging wrote: > > I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could work. Open for any thoughts or suggestions of a better word! What do you call the place that a tradesman (sorry, ladies!) works out of? The "place" that he stores his equipment, is his registered trading address, where his business mail is delivered, that (probably) isn't open to the general public to come & visit - it could even be his home, *if* he has a sign out the front to say "Fred Smith, Electrical Contractor" Maybe tradesman tradesperson=boatbuilder; builder; electrician? On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 23:46, Lionel Giard wrote: > Keep in mind that there is already the tags "man_made=works" + > "products=*" for industrial scale production. Like the example of a brewery > that can be tagged as craft=brewery (when small) or via man_made=works + > product=beer (when industrial). > That's another one I was thinking of & the same applies to =distillery > To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft" > guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production > there). :-) > No, I agree it can't. Maybe we could specify that shop=trade + trade= must include "supply / supplies" eg shop=trade + trade=plumbing_supplies, for the wholesaler that carries all the different sizes of pipe, taps & other fittings? ATM, there's a mixture eg =building_supplies but also =plumbing: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade That would leave trade=plumber for the shed that they work out of. On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 01:13, Kevin Kenny wrote: > > Around my workplace, the bargaining units use 'craft' and 'trade' > pretty much interchangeably. A plumber, electrician, millwright, > draughtsman, machinist, ... might be referred to as either a > 'craftsman' or 'tradesman'. > > I know that 'craft' sometimes carries the small-scale, bespoke-work > connotation, as in 'hand-crafted' but I'm not too uncomfortable with > describing carpentry (even framing work), masonry or steamfitting as > 'crafts'. I understand what you're saying, Kevin, & to a certain extent agree with you, although I think there are still fine lines - a carpenter is definitely a tradie, a cabinet maker could be a tradie if they just assemble flat-packs, but a craftsman if they do fine, precision work, while a woodturner is a craftsman. Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 2:58 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like > =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit as > they're (usually) small, often one person operations. Around my workplace, the bargaining units use 'craft' and 'trade' pretty much interchangeably. A plumber, electrician, millwright, draughtsman, machinist, ... might be referred to as either a 'craftsman' or 'tradesman'. I know that 'craft' sometimes carries the small-scale, bespoke-work connotation, as in 'hand-crafted' but I'm not too uncomfortable with describing carpentry (even framing work), masonry or steamfitting as 'crafts'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 02:44:35PM +0100, Lionel Giard wrote: > > To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft" > guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production > there). :-) That is indeed part of the meaning for trade=?? when used in conjunction with (as a sub-tag of) shop=trade. But I think that the idea was to re-use trade in other contexts. I am a little uncertain whether that would be unambiguous. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
Keep in mind that there is already the tags "man_made=works" + "products=*" for industrial scale production. Like the example of a brewery that can be tagged as craft=brewery (when small) or via man_made=works + product=beer (when industrial). To my understanding, at trade shop can't really be compared to a "craft" guy, as the trade shop only sell bulk material (there is no production there). :-) Le mar. 26 mars 2019 à 12:00, ael via Tagging a écrit : > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 04:57:12PM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find > > > specialized workers. > > > > > > > I've never been very happy with a lot of the craft= tags. > > > > To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like > > =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit > > as they're (usually) small, often one person operations. > > > > But =boatbuilder; builder; electrician; glaziery; hvac; mint; roofer; > > sawmill etc are usually not small scale works. > > +1 > > > > > Should we possibly have a trade= key to cover the office / workshop / > shed > > / factory unit where these specialists are located, or from where they > work > > out of? > > As long as it is clearly distinguished from the exiting use of trade. > I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could > work. > > ael > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 04:57:12PM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find > > specialized workers. > > > > I've never been very happy with a lot of the craft= tags. > > To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like > =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit > as they're (usually) small, often one person operations. > > But =boatbuilder; builder; electrician; glaziery; hvac; mint; roofer; > sawmill etc are usually not small scale works. +1 > > Should we possibly have a trade= key to cover the office / workshop / shed > / factory unit where these specialists are located, or from where they work > out of? As long as it is clearly distinguished from the exiting use of trade. I fear confusion if it uses exactly the same tag. But maybe it could work. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 10:29, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > > Am 25.03.2019 um 13:57 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny < > matkoni...@tutanota.com>: > > > > > - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber > > - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing > supplies > > - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but > rarely used > > > there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find > specialized workers. > I've never been very happy with a lot of the craft= tags. To me "craft" suggests small-scale, probably handmade, so things like =basket_maker; beekeeper; blacksmith; cooper; embroiderer & so on all fit as they're (usually) small, often one person operations. But =boatbuilder; builder; electrician; glaziery; hvac; mint; roofer; sawmill etc are usually not small scale works. Should we possibly have a trade= key to cover the office / workshop / shed / factory unit where these specialists are located, or from where they work out of? Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
sent from a phone > Am 25.03.2019 um 13:57 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny : > > My expectation is that > > - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber > - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies > - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely > used there is also craft (combination or not) for places where you find specialized workers. In my area it is typical for this kind of shop to also offer delivery and installation service if required. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
Mar 25, 2019, 4:30 PM by marc.ge...@gmail.com: > I wonder whether you will ever get the right answers to this type of > questions on this mailing list. > Only if people on this list have used those tags themselves or > interacted with people using the "wrong" tags you might get an idea of > what is going on. > Otherwise, it seems to me that we just might guess the correct answer. > > The only people that know what they meant with a certain tag (that is > not documented) are those that used it. But finding the people that > used to tag and contact them is a daunting task. > And they may not wish to be contacted. I treat mailing list as self delected group of mappers that is OK with answering questions asked by strangers. Also, note that if use of tag is interpreted in a common way by OSM community then it does not really matter what was intended. In addition nearly always when I ask "what is the meaning of XYZ" I have some guess/expectation what is the meaning of it (usually I mention it) so if there is no response that I am wrong or mistaken I assume that I was right - in such cases question is basically a sanity check. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
I wonder whether you will ever get the right answers to this type of questions on this mailing list. Only if people on this list have used those tags themselves or interacted with people using the "wrong" tags you might get an idea of what is going on. Otherwise, it seems to me that we just might guess the correct answer. The only people that know what they meant with a certain tag (that is not documented) are those that used it. But finding the people that used to tag and contact them is a daunting task. regards m On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 1:59 PM Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > What is the difference between these shops? > > My expectation is that > > - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber > - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies > - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely > used > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=plumber vs shop=plumbing vs shop=plumbing_supplies
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 01:57:35PM +0100, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > What is the difference between these shops? > > My expectation is that > > - shop=plumber is poorly tagged office of a plumber > - shop=plumbing is unclear tagging of shop with primarily plumbing supplies > - shop=plumbing_supplies is a good name for plumbing supplies shop but rarely > used Or shop=trade and trade=plumbing_supplies if it is largely aimed at trades people/professionals. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
