[GTALUG] convert sun rays to cryptocurrencies.

[Alvin Starr via talk]

Lets start by changing the subject.

On 09/06/2017 08:12 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

On 2017-09-06 09:06 AM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

A client came to me asking about helping him setup an Etherium mining
server pool.

Hey, I know that there are some honest cryptocurrency types out there,
but there are some definite shady ones around Toronto. One Etherium
joker stole ~$500 of Raspberry Pis and accessories from my employer.
Caveat consultor.

I'm a (sometime) utility solar designer. The idea's interesting, but the
implementation's tricky.

I have worked with this client for well over a decade and he is not shady.
But In general I agree that the cryptocurrency world is a bit dodgy at 
times.
Ethereum looks to be a bit different in that is seems to be more 
intended to provide contracts and other services  over just being a 
trading medium like bitcoin, litecoin...



What if you glue a GPU with very little extra hardware to the back of a
solar panel.

* Solar modules produce variable I-V output depending on sunlight and
air temperature. You'll need to use some kind of inverter to stop your
miners becoming puffs of expensive smoke in their first winter dawn.
There will need to be a  real quality DC-DC converter because there is 
not much point converting the DC output from the panel to AC only to 
convert it back to DC.


Possibly DC  to 12V to some batteries or ultra-capacitors to deal with 
transients or possibly to provide run time extension.

(more on this later)

Stick it out in the sun and let it calculate 8-10 hours a day.
Put a big heat sink on the GPU and it should be able to stay cool enough
just from air cooling

* Solar modules run roughly 20°C hotter than ambient, often more. The
huge project I worked on in Arizona quite frequently hit 45°C in the
shade, so your GPU would be around 70°C under no load.

I kind of wondered about this.
To some extent this would not be much worse than the kind of environment 
that cell phone equipment needs to operate in.




* The dead air behind modules is *very* still. Passive cooling would
likely melt.

Possibly.
The question would be how much temperature differential is required 
between the air and the heat sink to dissipate the number of watts the 
system generates and what limits does that put on the operational 
environment.


* You'd need to weatherproof your GPUs against water, dust and ice. Any
crevices attract spiders and ants, and junction boxes in desert
locations are a favoured haunt for scorpions and rattlesnakes.
I worked on passively cooled avionics projects in the past and its 
doable but somewhat complex when you have to start embedding heat 
transfer sheets to your PC boards.


The enclosures would need to be sealed and just have a set of wires 
going to the DC from the panel and some coax going to an antenna.



Take a few thousand of these and set them out in a sunny place and you
would have a coin generator.

* You'd need a small amount of ride-through battery, as a heavy cloud or
shading on the wrong bit of the module can reduce your power output to
close to zero.


Once the hardware is paid for then the operational cost would be close
to 0 but for some glass cleaner and rags.

* Almost everywhere on the planet requires some kind of permit or
environmental impact assessment. Even glass cleaner and rags need an
MSDS and hazard management plan.
Lowes is selling solar projects with what appears to be 0 environmental 
impact.

Lots of places are selling solar panels without any regulatory requirements.


* Some module types (thin film) are in perpetual danger of being
classified as hazardous waste due to their cadmium content.

I am sure Shell or Exxon... Would love to see that happen.


* If you're far away from people, network is hard.
Only in North America. Just about every 3rd world country has ubiquitous 
mobile access.

There is also satellite internet.
The latency is huge and the upload bandwidth is small but it could be a 
workable solution.




* If you're in an isolated area, theft of solar equipment is a huge problem.

* There's also something about solar modules that attract people with
shotguns. It usually ends badly for your installation, unless there's a
big fence.

Well that is one I never thought of but in a strange way I can see it.
That and kids with rocks.

Your making a great argument that solar should never be used as a 
technology because its dangerous and a target for vandals and other 
miscreants.




They would need to be networked together but it does not have to be high
speed.
It could be a low power mesh to an edge that connects via something as
simple as cell phone data.

* Solar modules, with all that wiring and semiconductor hanging about,
make about the best radio signal attenuator I've ever seen. You only try
to make a cell call or get a GPS fix under a solar array once.

Put antennas on the top corners of the panels.
Since your building the system you can route the RF to wherever you want.


* 

Re: [GTALUG] OT: Solar Designer [Was: NOT: Re: From BTRFS to what?]

[John Moniz via talk]

On Sep 6, 2017 8:12 PM, "Stewart C. Russell via talk"  wrote:
I'm a (sometime) utility solar designer. ...I recently saw the name Stewart Russell associated with some very important solar energy work in Australia. Would that be you Stewart? I've been wondering about it ever since I read the article.John.---
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Re: [GTALUG] NOT: Re: From BTRFS to what?

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2017-09-06 09:06 AM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> 
> A client came to me asking about helping him setup an Etherium mining
> server pool.

Hey, I know that there are some honest cryptocurrency types out there,
but there are some definite shady ones around Toronto. One Etherium
joker stole ~$500 of Raspberry Pis and accessories from my employer.
Caveat consultor.

I'm a (sometime) utility solar designer. The idea's interesting, but the
implementation's tricky.

> What if you glue a GPU with very little extra hardware to the back of a
> solar panel.

* Solar modules produce variable I-V output depending on sunlight and
air temperature. You'll need to use some kind of inverter to stop your
miners becoming puffs of expensive smoke in their first winter dawn.

> Stick it out in the sun and let it calculate 8-10 hours a day.
> Put a big heat sink on the GPU and it should be able to stay cool enough
> just from air cooling

* Solar modules run roughly 20°C hotter than ambient, often more. The
huge project I worked on in Arizona quite frequently hit 45°C in the
shade, so your GPU would be around 70°C under no load.

* The dead air behind modules is *very* still. Passive cooling would
likely melt.

* You'd need to weatherproof your GPUs against water, dust and ice. Any
crevices attract spiders and ants, and junction boxes in desert
locations are a favoured haunt for scorpions and rattlesnakes.

> Take a few thousand of these and set them out in a sunny place and you
> would have a coin generator.

* You'd need a small amount of ride-through battery, as a heavy cloud or
shading on the wrong bit of the module can reduce your power output to
close to zero.

> Once the hardware is paid for then the operational cost would be close
> to 0 but for some glass cleaner and rags.

* Almost everywhere on the planet requires some kind of permit or
environmental impact assessment. Even glass cleaner and rags need an
MSDS and hazard management plan.

* Some module types (thin film) are in perpetual danger of being
classified as hazardous waste due to their cadmium content.

* If you're far away from people, network is hard.

* If you're in an isolated area, theft of solar equipment is a huge problem.

* There's also something about solar modules that attract people with
shotguns. It usually ends badly for your installation, unless there's a
big fence.

> They would need to be networked together but it does not have to be high
> speed.
> It could be a low power mesh to an edge that connects via something as
> simple as cell phone data.

* Solar modules, with all that wiring and semiconductor hanging about,
make about the best radio signal attenuator I've ever seen. You only try
to make a cell call or get a GPS fix under a solar array once.

* The inverters you'll need can produce a fiendish amount of radio
interference unless they're shielded in expensive enclosures.

> Solar panels cost about $1/watt and there is no ongoing cost but power
> here costs about $0.08-0.16/KWH.

* Modules are way less than $1/W now. Racking will likely double the
cost of your installation, though.

* A utility-grade 330 Wp module is about 2 m² and weighs around 22 kg.
At these latitudes, you'll get about 40 W average across the whole year.
Since you're only proposing running through the day, you'd get more than
that. Have a play on PVWatts  for hourly
output. Choose a module like a Canadian Solar CS6U-330M for modelling:
it's a solid Mono-Si module with decent efficiency.

cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] From BTRFS to what?

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2017-09-06 10:22 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> 
> Rignt on about ext2/3/4. After much research, my design for the linux
> disk drive partitioning for the desktop PC uses a blend of all three:
> ext2, ext3, ext4.

There's really no advantage in using anything *but* ext4 out of these:
ext2 and ext3 are essentially older, less-journally versions of the same
idea. There might be a niche that could favour one of the older ext*
FSs, but I haven't found it.

And here's me old enough to remember the extfs/xiafs war, too. Not that
age adds anything here but an increasing inability to read small print.

> DFLY (and HAMMER!) seems to have an enthusiastic (but very small) user
> base.

Sounds just like BSD, then.

/drops mic …
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Re: [GTALUG] NOT: Re: From BTRFS to what?

[Howard Gibson via talk]

Alvin,

   The bright sun is not the best place to put a heat sink.  

   How many Watts are we talking about here, and what sort of budget do you 
have?  Can the system be too cold?

On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 09:06:41 -0400
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:

> Wow. got into a bit of a snitfest with dhaval.giani over this one.
> 
> Now to the completely unrelated part.
> 
> I have been thinking about a project and I would like to bounce it off you.
> 
> A client came to me asking about helping him setup an Etherium mining 
> server pool.
> 
> This got me thinking.
> 
> In its simplest sense the process is power in . ETH out.
> The biggest cost is power then cooling to get rid of all the head from 
> the GPU's.
> 
> What if you glue a GPU with very little extra hardware to the back of a 
> solar panel.
> Stick it out in the sun and let it calculate 8-10 hours a day.
> Put a big heat sink on the GPU and it should be able to stay cool enough 
> just from air cooling
> 
> Take a few thousand of these and set them out in a sunny place and you 
> would have a coin generator.
> Once the hardware is paid for then the operational cost would be close 
> to 0 but for some glass cleaner and rags.
> 
> They would need to be networked together but it does not have to be high 
> speed.
> It could be a low power mesh to an edge that connects via something as 
> simple as cell phone data.
> 
> Solar panels cost about $1/watt and there is no ongoing cost but power 
> here costs about $0.08-0.16/KWH.
> On the face of it there is a 3 year payback for the power but if you add 
> in 30% extra power to run cooling and the building costs for housing the 
> mining pool.
> 
> 
> Am I crazy?
> 
> -- 
> Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
> Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
> al...@netvel.net  ||
> 
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Re: [GTALUG] NOT: Re: From BTRFS to what?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 09:06:41AM -0400, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> Wow. got into a bit of a snitfest with dhaval.giani over this one.
> 
> Now to the completely unrelated part.
> 
> I have been thinking about a project and I would like to bounce it off you.
> 
> A client came to me asking about helping him setup an Etherium mining server
> pool.
> 
> This got me thinking.
> 
> In its simplest sense the process is power in . ETH out.
> The biggest cost is power then cooling to get rid of all the head from the
> GPU's.
> 
> What if you glue a GPU with very little extra hardware to the back of a
> solar panel.
> Stick it out in the sun and let it calculate 8-10 hours a day.
> Put a big heat sink on the GPU and it should be able to stay cool enough
> just from air cooling

I don't think you can passively cool any GPU worth using for the job.
Better have fans at least.  And out in the sun might get pretty toasty
too and not be that good for cooling either.

> Take a few thousand of these and set them out in a sunny place and you would
> have a coin generator.
> Once the hardware is paid for then the operational cost would be close to 0
> but for some glass cleaner and rags.
> 
> They would need to be networked together but it does not have to be high
> speed.

Depends how large the work data needed for that currency is.  I got the
impression some crypto currencies required some pretty hefty sizes data
to be kept up to date.

> It could be a low power mesh to an edge that connects via something as
> simple as cell phone data.
> 
> Solar panels cost about $1/watt and there is no ongoing cost but power here
> costs about $0.08-0.16/KWH.
> On the face of it there is a 3 year payback for the power but if you add in
> 30% extra power to run cooling and the building costs for housing the mining
> pool.
> 
> Am I crazy?

Probably?  Not sure.  I am not going to try it. :)

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] From BTRFS to what?

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Greetings To GTALUG,

- Original Message - 
From: "Anthony de Boer via talk" 

To: "Alvin Starr via talk" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] From BTRFS to what?



Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

On 09/05/2017 09:42 AM, Christopher Browne via talk wrote:
>  ...





Debian and Ubuntu don't seem to have the same support offerings but I
could be wrong on that point.


Debian at least is a volunteer organization and you can't wave the
corporate Amex at them.  They're generally quite reasonable at issuing
fixes to CVE issues and their stuff Just Works but if you want to be
spoon-fed you have to pick up the spoon in your own hand, as it were.



As a Windows XP "orphan" on an ancient Dell desktop, who is now escaping 
from the Microsoft Boa Constrictor, by switching to debian Linux on a 
new custom-built PC (parts specified but not yet built), So it's good to 
have my choice of debian confirmed as a good one.






I hope nobody is looking at redoing their root filesystems in any sort 
of

stampede to a different filesystem.  The choice of filesystem usually
runs for the lifetime of an install, and when Btrfs became ready for
prime-time I used it in a few non-core systems I was setting up, and 
it's

been happily working.  Certainly I'd not now try to swim upstream by
using it on an RH/CentOS installation, but Debian and Gentoo are still
happy with it.  But the vast majority of Linux systems I've built have
had ext2/3/4.



Rignt on about ext2/3/4. After much research, my design for the linux 
disk drive partitioning for the desktop PC uses a blend of all three: 
ext2, ext3, ext4.




* * *
* * *

Regarding more esoteric filesystems along hte lines of: btrfs and zfs.

In another project -- a website -- I plan to start up the website using 
debian Linus ext4 under a cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM vistual server.


But I also have experimented with a very interesting BSD-flavoured *nix 
called DragonFlyBSD (DFLY), again running on a cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM 
vistual server.


My research indicates that DFLY has two major attractions:

1. DFLY seems to be a very high-performance os (particularly its network 
stack). But this is based on comments by other DFLY users, not on my 
personal experience.


2. DFLY offers its own advanced filesystem HAMMER1 (to distinguish the 
current production-ready HAMMER from the new HAMMER2 currently under 
development). HAMMER1 offers may features of advanced file systems (e.g. 
snapshot).


DFLY (and HAMMER!) seems to have an enthusiastic (but very small) user 
base.


One interesting quirk about DFLY: Although DFLY is primarily aimed at 
the physical server hardware market, there are sometimes calls for help 
on the email discussion forum, from courageous DFLY tire-kickers who are 
installing DFLY on personal computers / workstations (especially laptop 
/ notebook computerrs). Seemingly becaue DFLY is so very resource 
efficient it can use otherwise obsolete underpowered hardware. The big 
struggles these DFLY notebook users have, seem to be with getting video 
and other peripherals working.


* * *
* * *

In reference to advanced filesystems, I am wondering about HAMMER1 in 
the context of Linux:


1. Occasionally, there is mention on the DFLY email forum, of the idea 
of porting HAMMER to Linux, but but obviously this would be a huge 
undertaking and not necessarily one with a happy ending.


2. Would there be some way to use a (dedicated server / virtual server) 
DFLY + HAMMER1 setup as a network-addressable filesystem for Linux? Get 
the operational and reliability benefits of DFLY+HAMMER but run them in 
their purely native mode.


Steve



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Re: [GTALUG] NOT: Re: From BTRFS to what?

[ac via talk]

seeing as it is already out there :)

There are some geo's that have extremely high number of sunlight days &
are also blessed with natural wind (like Hawaii, etc) - how much power
does Raspberry PI use? 

i added a top post just for more fun, I mean if it is gonna hang out it
has to hang all out :) 

On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 09:06:41 -0400
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:
> Now to the completely unrelated part.
> I have been thinking about a project and I would like to bounce it
> off you.
> A client came to me asking about helping him setup an Etherium mining 
> server pool.
> 
> This got me thinking.
> 
> In its simplest sense the process is power in . ETH out.
> The biggest cost is power then cooling to get rid of all the head
> from the GPU's.
> 
> What if you glue a GPU with very little extra hardware to the back of
> a solar panel.
> Stick it out in the sun and let it calculate 8-10 hours a day.
> Put a big heat sink on the GPU and it should be able to stay cool
> enough just from air cooling
> 
> Take a few thousand of these and set them out in a sunny place and
> you would have a coin generator.
> Once the hardware is paid for then the operational cost would be
> close to 0 but for some glass cleaner and rags.
> 
> They would need to be networked together but it does not have to be
> high speed.
> It could be a low power mesh to an edge that connects via something
> as simple as cell phone data.
> 
> Solar panels cost about $1/watt and there is no ongoing cost but
> power here costs about $0.08-0.16/KWH.
> On the face of it there is a 3 year payback for the power but if you
> add in 30% extra power to run cooling and the building costs for
> housing the mining pool.
> 
> 
> Am I crazy?
> 

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Re: [GTALUG] NOT: Re: From BTRFS to what?

[Tim Tisdall via talk]

You may find this helpful:
https://www.reddit.com/user/dan_from_san_diego/submitted/  The guy claims
to be doing something like this and provides some calculations about how
profitable he is.  I think one issue you're not accounting for is the need
to constantly update hardware to stay competitive with other miners.  That
guy on Reddit says he's doing that by selling his old miners and buying the
latest.

On 6 September 2017 at 09:06, Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:

> Wow. got into a bit of a snitfest with dhaval.giani over this one.
>
> Now to the completely unrelated part.
>
> I have been thinking about a project and I would like to bounce it off you.
>
> A client came to me asking about helping him setup an Etherium mining
> server pool.
>
> This got me thinking.
>
> In its simplest sense the process is power in . ETH out.
> The biggest cost is power then cooling to get rid of all the head from the
> GPU's.
>
> What if you glue a GPU with very little extra hardware to the back of a
> solar panel.
> Stick it out in the sun and let it calculate 8-10 hours a day.
> Put a big heat sink on the GPU and it should be able to stay cool enough
> just from air cooling
>
> Take a few thousand of these and set them out in a sunny place and you
> would have a coin generator.
> Once the hardware is paid for then the operational cost would be close to
> 0 but for some glass cleaner and rags.
>
> They would need to be networked together but it does not have to be high
> speed.
> It could be a low power mesh to an edge that connects via something as
> simple as cell phone data.
>
> Solar panels cost about $1/watt and there is no ongoing cost but power
> here costs about $0.08-0.16/KWH.
> On the face of it there is a 3 year payback for the power but if you add
> in 30% extra power to run cooling and the building costs for housing the
> mining pool.
>
>
> Am I crazy?
>
> --
> Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
> Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
> al...@netvel.net  ||
>
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[GTALUG] I am stupid. Sorry.

[Alvin Starr via talk]

DOH.

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[GTALUG] NOT: Re: From BTRFS to what?

[Alvin Starr via talk]

Wow. got into a bit of a snitfest with dhaval.giani over this one.

Now to the completely unrelated part.

I have been thinking about a project and I would like to bounce it off you.

A client came to me asking about helping him setup an Etherium mining 
server pool.


This got me thinking.

In its simplest sense the process is power in . ETH out.
The biggest cost is power then cooling to get rid of all the head from 
the GPU's.


What if you glue a GPU with very little extra hardware to the back of a 
solar panel.

Stick it out in the sun and let it calculate 8-10 hours a day.
Put a big heat sink on the GPU and it should be able to stay cool enough 
just from air cooling


Take a few thousand of these and set them out in a sunny place and you 
would have a coin generator.
Once the hardware is paid for then the operational cost would be close 
to 0 but for some glass cleaner and rags.


They would need to be networked together but it does not have to be high 
speed.
It could be a low power mesh to an edge that connects via something as 
simple as cell phone data.


Solar panels cost about $1/watt and there is no ongoing cost but power 
here costs about $0.08-0.16/KWH.
On the face of it there is a 3 year payback for the power but if you add 
in 30% extra power to run cooling and the building costs for housing the 
mining pool.



Am I crazy?

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