Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 7:05 AM Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:
>
> On 1/28/21 7:18 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
>
> On 2021-01-28 5:45 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
>
> A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto!
>
>
> Several years ago, Toronto Hydro had the same idea.  I  believe they sold 
> their fibre to Cogeco.  Back when I was with Unitel, working with Rogers, 
> we'd use Hydro fibre to reach customers in the downtown core.
>
> Not sure of steps in between but Cogeco ended up with Toronto Hydro Telecom 
> and bundled it with Peer1 which they recently sold to 
> https://www.digitalcolony.com/ and its now called Aptum.
> https://aptum.com/newsroom/cogeco-peer-1-acquistion-by-digital-colony-closes/
>
> So a large chunk of Ontario's telecom infrastructure is in the hands of  a 
> bunch of fund managers.
> I have a feeling that will not end well for Ontario users of telecom services.

Of course not - - - - but - - - - the fund managers will make a crap
load of money in the process.

Bell bought MTS - - - - there were promises of some $4+ billion for
infrastructure improvements.
Don't think I've seen any improvements - - -rather the opposite in
fact - - - - things are getting
suckier!
How can you tell when a mega corp exec or a politician are lying - - -
- are their lips moving?

Same old same old!
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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

I definitely agree: NB and Nova Scotis have done some work with fixed 
tariffs for access to public poles... this is a workaround to private 
duopolies.


--dave

On 2021-01-29 6:11 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

| From: David Collier-Brown via talk 

| A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto!

I actually think that there is a better approach.

The free market is generally a good way to provide services but there are
failure modes in the free market.  The main failure mode is monopoly.  A
second failure mode is not providing services to customers who cost more
than the revenue that they generate.

Problem 1: monopolies.  Ones that are vertically and horizontally
integrated.  Technically, duopolies, but who's counting.

The solution isn't to replace them with another monopoly (a government
body).

The solution:

- recognize that there is a natural monopoly and create a regulated field
   for them.  The obvious natural monopoly is the physical substrate of the
   networks.

   In fact, there are certain parts of the network that could have
   competition.  The last mile isn't one of those parts.

- forbid any integration with the monopoly entity.  For example, if it
   provides physical connectivity, it must not provide services.

- the monopoly must be regulated to behave in "common carrier" mode:
   it must not differentiate in price based upon what the network is
   carrying.  "Network Neutrality"

- a nice competitive market for services should be possible.  New services
   can be freely invented.  Evidence:  the web has a larger set of choices
   and kinds of services that the phone system.


Problem 2: apparently poor folks are not getting enough broadband.

- should we subsidize service for them (us)?  Perhaps they're making a
   rational choice on how to allocate their resources.

- should we subsidize connectivity for everyone?  There are advantages to
   avoiding discontinuities in policies

Years ago, POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) was subsidized, mostly by
charging a lot more for long distance service (considered a luxury).
This worked fine for a long time but broke down.  It isn't clear whether
this was good policy.

As soon as the single-system, single-provider model of phone service broke
down, lots of creativity bloomed.


Consider the road system as a model.  That's a public resource.  I don't
100% know how to analogize this.

- roads are (mostly, best) provided publicly

- vehicles are provided by a variety of actors (private, mostly, but also
   public transit)

- regulation is by many levels of government, for many separate purposes

- a lot of people are killed on the roads.


Problem 3: stupid underbuilding of infrastructure

Require all builders to provide fibre connectivity in each building.

Controversial: that fibre should reach a local, neutral hub where a choice
of connectivity providers have presence.  The building owner should own
this fibre.  If there are tenants, the building owner should provide
equitable access to that fibre.

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--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com |  -- Mark Twain

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: David Collier-Brown via talk 

| A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto!

I actually think that there is a better approach.

The free market is generally a good way to provide services but there are 
failure modes in the free market.  The main failure mode is monopoly.  A 
second failure mode is not providing services to customers who cost more 
than the revenue that they generate.

Problem 1: monopolies.  Ones that are vertically and horizontally 
integrated.  Technically, duopolies, but who's counting.

The solution isn't to replace them with another monopoly (a government 
body).

The solution:

- recognize that there is a natural monopoly and create a regulated field 
  for them.  The obvious natural monopoly is the physical substrate of the 
  networks.

  In fact, there are certain parts of the network that could have 
  competition.  The last mile isn't one of those parts.

- forbid any integration with the monopoly entity.  For example, if it 
  provides physical connectivity, it must not provide services.

- the monopoly must be regulated to behave in "common carrier" mode:
  it must not differentiate in price based upon what the network is 
  carrying.  "Network Neutrality"

- a nice competitive market for services should be possible.  New services 
  can be freely invented.  Evidence:  the web has a larger set of choices 
  and kinds of services that the phone system.


Problem 2: apparently poor folks are not getting enough broadband.

- should we subsidize service for them (us)?  Perhaps they're making a 
  rational choice on how to allocate their resources.

- should we subsidize connectivity for everyone?  There are advantages to 
  avoiding discontinuities in policies

Years ago, POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) was subsidized, mostly by 
charging a lot more for long distance service (considered a luxury).  
This worked fine for a long time but broke down.  It isn't clear whether 
this was good policy.

As soon as the single-system, single-provider model of phone service broke 
down, lots of creativity bloomed.


Consider the road system as a model.  That's a public resource.  I don't 
100% know how to analogize this.

- roads are (mostly, best) provided publicly

- vehicles are provided by a variety of actors (private, mostly, but also 
  public transit)

- regulation is by many levels of government, for many separate purposes

- a lot of people are killed on the roads.


Problem 3: stupid underbuilding of infrastructure

Require all builders to provide fibre connectivity in each building.

Controversial: that fibre should reach a local, neutral hub where a choice 
of connectivity providers have presence.  The building owner should own 
this fibre.  If there are tenants, the building owner should provide 
equitable access to that fibre.

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 1/29/21 9:17 AM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

On 2021-01-29 8:05 a.m., Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

I have a feeling that will not end well for Ontario users of telecom
services.

I don't think it could be going more badly for Ontario users. A friend
has just moved to Helsinki. We compared available plans: Telia's worst
plan was faster than Bell's best plan, and it wasn't possible to have a
plan with Telia that cost as much as Bell's plans.

  Stewart

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We have been to more than 10 third world countries over the years and 
ALL of them have had faster and cheaper service than here.


A couple of years ago we took a trip along the Mississippi valley and 
had no coverage for most of that trip.
Compare that to a trip to South America where we had coverage in the 
Andes  mountains.


Every night I pray for more Starlink satellites.

--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2021-01-29 8:05 a.m., Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> 
> I have a feeling that will not end well for Ontario users of telecom
> services.

I don't think it could be going more badly for Ontario users. A friend
has just moved to Helsinki. We compared available plans: Telia's worst
plan was faster than Bell's best plan, and it wasn't possible to have a
plan with Telia that cost as much as Bell's plans.

 Stewart

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

On 2021-01-29 8:05 a.m., Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

On 1/28/21 7:18 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2021-01-28 5:45 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto! 


Several years ago, Toronto Hydro had the same idea.  I  believe they 
sold their fibre to Cogeco.  Back when I was with Unitel, working 
with Rogers, we'd use Hydro fibre to reach customers in the downtown 
core.


Not sure of steps in between but Cogeco ended up with Toronto Hydro 
Telecom and bundled it with Peer1 which they recently sold to 
https://www.digitalcolony.com/  and 
its now called Aptum.
https://aptum.com/newsroom/cogeco-peer-1-acquistion-by-digital-colony-closes/ 



So a large chunk of Ontario's telecom infrastructure is in the hands 
of  a bunch of fund managers.
I have a feeling that will not end well for Ontario users of telecom 
services.




Conversely, the US FCC (just) reached out to Vint Cerf, Dave Taht and 
others to advise on the $3.2 billion "Emergency Broadband Benefit 
Program", instead of watching their infrastructure just circle the drain 
(;-))


--dave


--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com |  -- Mark Twain

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 1/28/21 7:18 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2021-01-28 5:45 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto! 


Several years ago, Toronto Hydro had the same idea.  I  believe they 
sold their fibre to Cogeco.  Back when I was with Unitel, working with 
Rogers, we'd use Hydro fibre to reach customers in the downtown core.


Not sure of steps in between but Cogeco ended up with Toronto Hydro 
Telecom and bundled it with Peer1 which they recently sold to 
https://www.digitalcolony.com/ and its now called Aptum.

https://aptum.com/newsroom/cogeco-peer-1-acquistion-by-digital-colony-closes/

So a large chunk of Ontario's telecom infrastructure is in the hands of  
a bunch of fund managers.
I have a feeling that will not end well for Ontario users of telecom 
services.




--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[ac via talk]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 07:21:25 -0500
David Collier-Brown via talk  wrote:
> The best is probably the Star's article, 
> https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/01/26/torontos-broadband-plan-an-indictment-of-crtcs-delay-on-affordable-internet.html
> 

Thank you so much, this is great :)


> Sources, from the original article
> 
>   * Agenda Item: Affordable Internet for All - City of Toronto
> http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2021.EX20.8
>   * Mapping Toronto’s Digital Divide - Ryerson Leadership Lab
> https://www.ryersonleadlab.com/digital-divide
>   * Toronto’s Broadband Plan an Indictment of CRTC’s Delay on
> Affordable Internet - The Star
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/01/26/torontos-broadband-plan-an-indictment-of-crtcs-delay-on-affordable-internet.html
>   * Want Faster, Cheaper Internet? Let’s Build It - OpenMedia
> 
> https://openmedia.org/article/item/want-faster-cheaper-internet-lets-build-it
>   * Hope Springs Municipal: How Small Towns are Driving Canada’s
> Digital Future - OpenMedia
> 
> https://openmedia.org/article/item/hope-springs-municipal-how-small-towns-are-driving-canadas-digital-future
>   * Remarks by the President on Promoting Community Broadband - The
> White House
> 
> https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/14/remarks-president-promoting-community-broadband
>   * Community-Owned Fibre Network: Value Leaders in America - Harvard
> 
> https://cyber.harvard.edu/sites/cyber.harvard.edu/files/2018-01-10-Pricing.Study_.pdf?data1=TotRev
>   * Localizing the Internet: Five Ways Public Ownership Solves the
> U.S. Broadband Problem - Institute for Local Self-Reliance
> 
> https://community-wealth.org/sites/clone.community-wealth.org/files/downloads/report-daggett.pdf
> 
> On 2021-01-29 6:31 a.m., ac via talk wrote:
> >
> > Some web links, PLEASE?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:29:37 -0500
> > James Knott via talk  wrote:
> >  
> >> On 2021-01-28 8:52 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:  
> >>> Hydro was "purchasable"
> >>> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> >> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> >> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk  
> > ---
> > Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> > Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk  
> 

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[David Collier-Brown via talk]

City's own announcement: 
https://www.toronto.ca/news/connectto-program-aims-to-increase-digital-equity-and-access-to-affordable-high-speed-internet-in-toronto/



On 2021-01-29 7:21 a.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:


The best is probably the Star's article, 
https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/01/26/torontos-broadband-plan-an-indictment-of-crtcs-delay-on-affordable-internet.html


Sources, from the original article

  * Agenda Item: Affordable Internet for All - City of Toronto
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2021.EX20.8
  * Mapping Toronto’s Digital Divide - Ryerson Leadership Lab
https://www.ryersonleadlab.com/digital-divide
  * Toronto’s Broadband Plan an Indictment of CRTC’s Delay on
Affordable Internet - The Star

https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/01/26/torontos-broadband-plan-an-indictment-of-crtcs-delay-on-affordable-internet.html
  * Want Faster, Cheaper Internet? Let’s Build It - OpenMedia

https://openmedia.org/article/item/want-faster-cheaper-internet-lets-build-it
  * Hope Springs Municipal: How Small Towns are Driving Canada’s
Digital Future - OpenMedia

https://openmedia.org/article/item/hope-springs-municipal-how-small-towns-are-driving-canadas-digital-future
  * Remarks by the President on Promoting Community Broadband - The
White House

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/14/remarks-president-promoting-community-broadband
  * Community-Owned Fibre Network: Value Leaders in America - Harvard

https://cyber.harvard.edu/sites/cyber.harvard.edu/files/2018-01-10-Pricing.Study_.pdf?data1=TotRev
  * Localizing the Internet: Five Ways Public Ownership Solves the
U.S. Broadband Problem - Institute for Local Self-Reliance

https://community-wealth.org/sites/clone.community-wealth.org/files/downloads/report-daggett.pdf

On 2021-01-29 6:31 a.m., ac via talk wrote:

Some web links, PLEASE?

thanks

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:29:37 -0500
James Knott via talk  wrote:


On 2021-01-28 8:52 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:

Hydro was "purchasable"
  



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--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dav...@spamcop.net|  -- Mark Twain

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--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dav...@spamcop.net   |  -- Mark Twain

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[David Collier-Brown via talk]

The best is probably the Star's article, 
https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/01/26/torontos-broadband-plan-an-indictment-of-crtcs-delay-on-affordable-internet.html


Sources, from the original article

 * Agenda Item: Affordable Internet for All - City of Toronto
   http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2021.EX20.8
 * Mapping Toronto’s Digital Divide - Ryerson Leadership Lab
   https://www.ryersonleadlab.com/digital-divide
 * Toronto’s Broadband Plan an Indictment of CRTC’s Delay on Affordable
   Internet - The Star
   
https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/01/26/torontos-broadband-plan-an-indictment-of-crtcs-delay-on-affordable-internet.html
 * Want Faster, Cheaper Internet? Let’s Build It - OpenMedia
   https://openmedia.org/article/item/want-faster-cheaper-internet-lets-build-it
 * Hope Springs Municipal: How Small Towns are Driving Canada’s Digital
   Future - OpenMedia
   
https://openmedia.org/article/item/hope-springs-municipal-how-small-towns-are-driving-canadas-digital-future
 * Remarks by the President on Promoting Community Broadband - The
   White House
   
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/14/remarks-president-promoting-community-broadband
 * Community-Owned Fibre Network: Value Leaders in America - Harvard
   
https://cyber.harvard.edu/sites/cyber.harvard.edu/files/2018-01-10-Pricing.Study_.pdf?data1=TotRev
 * Localizing the Internet: Five Ways Public Ownership Solves the U.S.
   Broadband Problem - Institute for Local Self-Reliance
   
https://community-wealth.org/sites/clone.community-wealth.org/files/downloads/report-daggett.pdf

On 2021-01-29 6:31 a.m., ac via talk wrote:


Some web links, PLEASE?

thanks

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:29:37 -0500
James Knott via talk  wrote:


On 2021-01-28 8:52 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:

Hydro was "purchasable"
  



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--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dav...@spamcop.net   |  -- Mark Twain

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[ac via talk]

Some web links, PLEASE?

thanks

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:29:37 -0500
James Knott via talk  wrote:

> On 2021-01-28 8:52 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
> > Hydro was "purchasable"
> >  
> 
> 
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[James Knott via talk]

On 2021-01-28 8:52 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:

Hydro was "purchasable"




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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[David Collier-Brown via talk]

Hydro was "purchasable"

--dave

On 2021-01-28 7:18 p.m., James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2021-01-28 5:45 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto! 


Several years ago, Toronto Hydro had the same idea.  I  believe they 
sold their fibre to Cogeco.  Back when I was with Unitel, working with 
Rogers, we'd use Hydro fibre to reach customers in the downtown core.


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David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dav...@spamcop.net   |  -- Mark Twain

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Re: [GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[James Knott via talk]

On 2021-01-28 5:45 p.m., David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto! 


Several years ago, Toronto Hydro had the same idea.  I  believe they 
sold their fibre to Cogeco.  Back when I was with Unitel, working with 
Rogers, we'd use Hydro fibre to reach customers in the downtown core.


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[GTALUG] Fwd: HISTORIC opportunity for cheaper Internet in Toronto

[David Collier-Brown via talk]

A proposal for a community broadband, in Toronto!

--dave

--- Begin Message ---
Toronto City Council is tabling cheaper, faster Internet on Feb 2.

David,

This Tuesday, February 2, Toronto City Council is considering something HUGE:
Community-owned. Fibre. Broadband. 勞 
[https://emojipedia.org/emoji/%F0%9F%A4%AF/]

This historic proposal would see Toronto build its own municipal broadband
Internet network, connecting over a million people who’ve been left behind by
high prices and subpar speeds from Big Telecom. 1

I can’t stress this enough: Community broadband is the best way to bring
cheaper, better Internet to everyone in Toronto. 2 But Big Telecom’s lobbyists 
are fast — so we need to be faster. Will you email City Council RIGHT NOW 
asking them to say yes to Community
Broadband?
[https://www.e-activist.com/page/email/click/2205/5134781?email=DNeunJW3lEuUWGEaIakX%2Bs0a%2F4%2B3Zztq=EiT9GZAUIixkwMmtusGc0w==]

EMAIL MY COUNCILLOR
[https://www.e-activist.com/page/email/click/2205/5134782?email=DNeunJW3lEuUWGEaIakX%2Bs0a%2F4%2B3Zztq=EiT9GZAUIixkwMmtusGc0w==]

Toronto’s the biggest city in Canada — but under Big Telecom’s oligopoly, over a
million residents STILL aren’t being properly served. 3

In fact, a brand new study just found 2 out of 5 TO households don’t have home 
Internet that meets Canada’s national
speed target . 4 The same study also found a whopping 1/3 of households are 
worried about how
they’ll pay their Internet bills in 2021. 5

We have the CRTC, the government, and their misplaced trust in Big Telecom to
thank for this gigantic failure. 6 If Big Telecom can't adequately connect 
Canada's largest and densest city —
then what hope does the rest of the country have?

It’s time for a new approach: Community-owned broadband.

Where it’s been implemented, community broadband has given people cheaper
Internet prices, power to choose their providers, and blazing-fast speeds on
state-of-the-art fibre infrastructure. 7 And best of all? NOBODY is left behind.

Better, cheaper Internet is so close, I can smell it. But we only have a few
days to get the city’s attention before it’s too late. Will you email Toronto 
City Council NOW telling them to support the community
broadband proposal?
[https://www.e-activist.com/page/email/click/2205/5134783?email=DNeunJW3lEuUWGEaIakX%2Bs0a%2F4%2B3Zztq=EiT9GZAUIixkwMmtusGc0w==]

EMAIL CITY COUNCIL NOW
[https://www.e-activist.com/page/email/click/2205/5134784?email=DNeunJW3lEuUWGEaIakX%2Bs0a%2F4%2B3Zztq=EiT9GZAUIixkwMmtusGc0w==]

Thanks for all that you do,

Erin at OpenMedia

Sources

 1. Agenda Item: Affordable Internet for All - City of Toronto
[http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2021.EX20.8]
 2. Want Faster, Cheaper Internet? Let’s Build It - OpenMedia

[https://openmedia.org/article/item/want-faster-cheaper-internet-lets-build-it]
 3. Mapping Toronto’s Digital Divide - Ryerson Leadership Lab 
[https://www.ryersonleadlab.com/digital-divide]
 4. See 3
 5. See 3
 6. Toronto’s Broadband Plan an Indictment of CRTC’s Delay on Affordable
Internet - The Star

[https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/01/26/torontos-broadband-plan-an-indictment-of-crtcs-delay-on-affordable-internet.html]
 7. Hope Springs Municipal: How Small Towns are Driving Canada’s Digital Future
- OpenMedia

[https://openmedia.org/article/item/hope-springs-municipal-how-small-towns-are-driving-canadas-digital-future]

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