Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons (it was .config all along)

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2021-10-22 21:13, Stewart C. Russell wrote:


It is immensely annoying that Xubuntu can't get this right.


I've restored the Alt-Tab behaviour, incidentally, by taking the simple 
but drastic step of removing everything from ~/.config, logging out, 
logging back in, then selectively restoring the files and folders to 
.config that look like things I might need.


This doesn't help work out what caused the issue, but the issue is gone 
now. I suspect it was something from my six year old Ubuntu installation 
fighting with the new Xubuntu update.


 Stewart

(and with my day job hat on: no, I can't get you a Raspberry Pi 2 Zero 
W, even if it is the only aarch64 machine you can theoretically obtain 
for USD 15. Our sister company in the USA got 2400 of them on Thursday 
about 4 pm, and even limiting them to one per order, sold out by 9:30 am 
on Friday.)

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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Mauro Souza via talk]

I've been a XFCE user since 2005, probably earlier, and every time I try a
new Gnome or KDE desktop, I get back to XFCE. It works, it's light, the
panel works just fine, Alt-Tab works as expected, Alt-` switches between
windows of the same program (like the dozen terminals I keep opening all
the time), you can have several virtual desktops and Ctrl-Alt-arrow to
change between them. It supports icons on the desktop, icons on the menu,
and takes very little memory.

The other desktop environment that I used extensively is Cinnamon. It's
fast, it's pretty, everything works, and maybe someday I will take the time
to build it under RedHat Enterprise, the distro I am forced to use because
it's the company issued Thinkpad that I explicitly requested (otherwise I
would have been issued a MacBook or the Air variant).  But as XFCE is as
good as Cinnamon, I have little incentive to install dozens and dozens of
libraries and wrestle with make to, well, make it.

Mauro
https://www.maurosouza.com - registered Linux User: 294521
Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God.


Em qui., 21 de out. de 2021 às 14:30, Giles Orr via talk 
escreveu:

> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 19:59, Stewart C. Russell via talk
>  wrote:
> >
> > On 2021-10-20 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> > >
> > > When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users
> > > are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any
> > > hate it receives.
> >
> > Yup. The main reason for Gnome removing desktop icons was that the code
> > was buggy. They didn't ask the users whether they wanted the bugs fixed
> > or the icons gone. They picked the latter. TBH, I'm still mad at Gnome
> > for getting rid of the bar you could dismiss with a click and it made
> > the Strar Trek door noise. I think that went in Gnome 1.2 → Gnome 2.0
> >
> > I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes
> > in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
> >
> > > Let me alt+tab between the windows.
> >
> > I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I
> > hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least
> > disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.
>
> (Admittedly from memory:) try Ctrl-Alt--arrow-keys to
> change desktops.  That is, of course, if you can find those keys on
> the Apple keyboard: Control-Option-arrow?
>
> --
> Giles
> https://www.gilesorr.com/
> giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 07:59:49PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
> Yup. The main reason for Gnome removing desktop icons was that the code was
> buggy. They didn't ask the users whether they wanted the bugs fixed or the
> icons gone. They picked the latter. TBH, I'm still mad at Gnome for getting
> rid of the bar you could dismiss with a click and it made the Strar Trek
> door noise. I think that went in Gnome 1.2 → Gnome 2.0
> 
> I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in)
> it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
> 
> I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I
> hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least
> disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.

alt+tab works for me in xfce.  Pretty sure I never had to change any
settings for that to work.  Only change I make to default xfce is
deleting the second button bar at the bottom since it takes up space
and does nothing useful for me.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

On 2021-10-20 19:59, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10
minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:


Let me alt+tab between the windows.



The Fedora version of XFCE does support alt-tab between windows.

--dave



--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com |  -- Mark Twain


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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2021-10-20 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:


When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users
are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any
hate it receives.


Yup. The main reason for Gnome removing desktop icons was that the code 
was buggy. They didn't ask the users whether they wanted the bugs fixed 
or the icons gone. They picked the latter. TBH, I'm still mad at Gnome 
for getting rid of the bar you could dismiss with a click and it made 
the Strar Trek door noise. I think that went in Gnome 1.2 → Gnome 2.0


I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes 
in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:



Let me alt+tab between the windows.


I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I 
hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least 
disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.


cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 12:47, Giles Orr via talk  wrote:


> As much as people scream about GNOME3, I don't think anyone forked
> GNOME2, which they're more than welcome to do.


I think someone has, mate. 

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Giles Orr via talk]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Michael Hill via talk wrote:
> > I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME
> > desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old.
>
> When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users
> are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any
> hate it receives.
>
> If they wanted to have a totally new vision (which is perfectly fine to
> do), they should have started a new project, not hijacked an existing one.

I think that Lennart has just reduced the whole problem to one
sentence.  A new vision is good - the history of Linux is littered
with "new visions," most of them long deceased ... however, the ones
that succeed move us forward.  But GNOME - as he points out - didn't
so much create a new vision as simultaneously hijacking and destroying
an old one.  Hugh sees this as a rewrite, but when almost nothing of
the former "vision" or paradigm remains, it's really a new project.
And yeah, if you spin it off as a new project you may be abandoning
the old one - but at least if you abandon it there's an opportunity
for someone to pick it up ...

Which brings up an interesting point.  As much as people scream about
GNOME3, I don't think anyone forked GNOME2, which they're more than
welcome to do.  Someone offended by KDE4 forked KDE3 and carried it on
as the Trinity Desktop Environment ( http://www.trinitydesktop.org/ ),
which is still going.  So I guess the GNOME3 haters just aren't that
motivated ...

If anyone is wondering where I stand on this (I'm sure most don't care
but one or two might) - I never liked GNOME2, and I really dislike the
behaviour of GNOME3.  But I don't have any skin in the game because I
still use Openbox on most machines (with 'fbpanel' and 'dmenu' or
'rofi' as a launcher).  If I feel the need for a full desktop, LXQt
isn't bad and lighter weight than the alternatives.

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk 

| On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Michael Hill via talk wrote:
| > I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME
| > desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old.

Agreed.

Gnome screen (not really a desktop metaphor) UI is mostly simple, which I 
mostly like.

In fact, since I first lived with GUI "desktops" (35 years ago?), I've 
been battered into submission.  Customization is a bit like building a 
sandcastle below the high-tide mark.  I just take the desktop that the 
distro prefers since I expect it to be better supported.

| When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users
| are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any
| hate it receives.

The only way to break "technical debt" is to start over.

I actually like the result.

| If they wanted to have a totally new vision (which is perfectly fine to
| do), they should have started a new project, not hijacked an existing one.

Agreed.  But leaving an unmaintained chunk of software is an attractive 
nuisance.  Maintaining two versions is very resource intensive.  Compare 
the Gnome Shell 2->3 transition to the Python 2->3 transition.

| Personally what I want a desktop to do is:
| Let me launch programs (preferably by just typing the name in)

In Gnome Shell: type the Windows key, type as much of the program name as 
you have to, hit return when your choice is the first offered.

| Let me resize windows.

Yes, by conventional mousing.  I don't know of a keyboard-only way because 
I've never wanted one.

| Let me maximize windows.

Yes, by conventional mousing.

| Let me close windows.

Yes, by conventional mousing.

But it is better to get the application to close the Window.

| Let me alt+tab between the windows.

Not exactly.

First: ALT+TAB seems to work like Windows key + TAB.  I 
like using the Windows key because I've conceptualized the Windows key as 
the way of talking to the Gnome Shell whereas the application gets ALT.

Window+TAB gets you a choice of running applications to cycle through.  
All terminal windows, for example, will be represented by a single icon.  
If you wish to select a particular terminal window, you move to the 
universal terminal icon and type Down Arrow to be able to select.

I almost never use the down arrow version.  Possibly because it is a bit 
awkward.  But a flat list of windows would be bad for me: I have at least 
66 windows open right now; most are Firefox windows.

Selecting between apps-with-windows works well for me.

| Anything other than that is just extra.
| 
| Gnome 3 failed at quite a few of those basic things, at least for the
| first while which was inexcusable.

I don't remember such a failure.  It may be so.

| These days I tend to just use xfce.  kde does the job too, but tends to
| be slower and I don't need the extras it adds.

I've rarely used KDE.  It seemed a bit busy the few times I tried it.

I've not used XFCE enough to be comfortable with it.  I seem to remember 
that it requires few resources, which would be welcome on older machines.  
On newer ones, the enormous waste of heavier systems doesn't matter much.

The transition that hammered some of my machines was when compositing the 
desktop started requiring 3-D graphical ops.  Slow on many of my older 
machines.  That seemed gratuitous.

I have too little understanding of the graphics stack (it is so big!  
does it need to be?).  For some reason, my older machines' desktops seem 
to have gotten faster again.  I suspect that the software OpenGL 
implementation has improved.  But my observations are confusing.  For 
example, one of the machines that slowed down actually had an OK iGPU (AMD 
C50); perhaps the driver improved.
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[steve--- via talk]

   My workaround is to stay on Ubuntu 18...

 -steve

> Thank you all for reminding me that I have done the right thing by never
> installing GNOME if an alternative is available.
> One would think that "the developers know better than end-users what users
> want" attitude would have softened over the years.
> Apparently not.
>
> KDE is big and bloated and sometimes overkill, but it never insults its
> users. I have also found MATE to be a kinder, gentler, less user-hostile
> version of GNOME and my second choice as a desktop.
>
> Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
> @evanleibovitch / @el56
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 09:59, John Weintraub via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> You could try installing Ubuntu Mate 21.10, as Mate supports desktop
>> icons.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:49 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk <
>> talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
>>
>>> GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for
>>> icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on
>>> the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed
>>> it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was
>>> the
>>> Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
>>>
>>> As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be
>>> doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo
>>> list
>>> for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right
>>> now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython
>>> development
>>> boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in
>>> progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?
>>>
>>> I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that
>>> aren't KDE.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>>   Stewart
>>>
>>> *: a real picture from a month ago:
>>> https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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>>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Weintraub
>> #333-7451 Moffatt Rd.
>> Richmond BC Canada
>> V6Y 3W3
>> 604-813-9830
>> johnweintr...@gmail.com
>>
>> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Michael Hill via talk wrote:
> I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME
> desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old.

When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users
are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any
hate it receives.

If they wanted to have a totally new vision (which is perfectly fine to
do), they should have started a new project, not hijacked an existing one.

Personally what I want a desktop to do is:
Let me launch programs (preferably by just typing the name in)
Let me resize windows.
Let me maximize windows.
Let me close windows.
Let me alt+tab between the windows.

Anything other than that is just extra.

Gnome 3 failed at quite a few of those basic things, at least for the
first while which was inexcusable.

These days I tend to just use xfce.  kde does the job too, but tends to
be slower and I don't need the extras it adds.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Michael Hill via talk]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:10 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk
 wrote:

> KDE is big and bloated and sometimes overkill, but it never insults its users.

I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME
desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old.

Mike
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

Thank you all for reminding me that I have done the right thing by never
installing GNOME if an alternative is available.
One would think that "the developers know better than end-users what users
want" attitude would have softened over the years.
Apparently not.

KDE is big and bloated and sometimes overkill, but it never insults its
users. I have also found MATE to be a kinder, gentler, less user-hostile
version of GNOME and my second choice as a desktop.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56


On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 09:59, John Weintraub via talk 
wrote:

> You could try installing Ubuntu Mate 21.10, as Mate supports desktop icons.
>
> On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:49 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk <
> talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
>
>> GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for
>> icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on
>> the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed
>> it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the
>> Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
>>
>> As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be
>> doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list
>> for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right
>> now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development
>> boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in
>> progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?
>>
>> I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that
>> aren't KDE.
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>>   Stewart
>>
>> *: a real picture from a month ago:
>> https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> John Weintraub
> #333-7451 Moffatt Rd.
> Richmond BC Canada
> V6Y 3W3
> 604-813-9830
> johnweintr...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[John Weintraub via talk]

You could try installing Ubuntu Mate 21.10, as Mate supports desktop icons.

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:49 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

> GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for
> icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on
> the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed
> it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the
> Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
>
> As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be
> doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list
> for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right
> now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development
> boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in
> progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?
>
> I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that
> aren't KDE.
>
> cheers,
>
>   Stewart
>
> *: a real picture from a month ago:
> https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940
>
>
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
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>


-- 
John Weintraub
#333-7451 Moffatt Rd.
Richmond BC Canada
V6Y 3W3
604-813-9830
johnweintr...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:49:45 -0400
"Stewart C. Russell via talk"  wrote:

> GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for 
> icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on 
> the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed 
> it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the 
> Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.


Stewart,

   I hate desktop icons and I hate Gnome.  I am not sure how to react
to your post.  :)

   FVWM does not support desktop icons and I love it.  XFCE and LXDE
probably do support them, and they make nice desktops.   

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Chris F.A. Johnson via talk]

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for 
icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on 
the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed 
it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the 
Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.


As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be 
doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list 
for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right 
now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development 
boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in 
progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?


Windowmaker (wmaker) is available and can have desktop icons.
(I don't use them).

--
   Chris F.A. Johnson
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[GTALUG] Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for 
icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on 
the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed 
it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the 
Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.


As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be 
doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list 
for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right 
now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development 
boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in 
progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?


I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that 
aren't KDE.


cheers,

 Stewart

*: a real picture from a month ago: 
https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940



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