Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-13 Thread Clifford Ilkay via talk 
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 8:09 AM, o1bigtenor  wrote:
[snipped long rant]
>
> In my work - - - ANY errors - - - either 1. I fix, 2. I can't fix - - - -
> I'm fired (terminated, gone, history) and I'm looking for another job.
>


"Employees will be punished until morale improves! The next person who
makes a mistake will be drawn and quartered because clearly, the threat of
firing isn't sufficient!"



> (And EVERYTHING gets checked!)
>
> I guess programmers don't have to work within those kind of parameters.
>


No, most don't because you can have any two of fast, cheap, or
high-quality, maybe, but you certainly cannot have all three. Software for
critical systems, like nuclear power plants, airplanes, and medical devices
is very expensive and slow-to-change precisely because of that. Browsers
iterate quickly and have bugs because quite simply, the consequences for
the browser crashing aren't that high. A browser is not a critical system
and it's priced accordingly.

If every software developer who wrote software with bugs or couldn't fix a
bug were fired, there would be no software developers left. Humans have
been building physical things for millennia so there is a large body of
knowledge of best practices. Yet, we still have structural failures in
buildings, for example. Software development has only existed for but a
blip in human history so we're still sorting out what works and what
doesn't. This is not an exact science. With all the layers of complexity,
it's a minor miracle that it all works as well as it does.

Regards,

Clifford Ilkay

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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-13 Thread Clifford Ilkay via talk 
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Andrej Marjan via talk 
wrote:

>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Alvin Starr via talk 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> It would be nice to have the ability to run multiple browsers that are
>> independent of each other on the same desktop as the same user but Chrome
>> and Firefox keep their context on a per user basis.
>>
>>
> Firefox supports multiple user profiles and you can run separate browser
> instances concurrently using separate profiles. Look into the profile
> manager - https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profile-manager-
> create-and-remove-firefox-profiles
>
> You can invoke multiple named profiles from the commandline too, but I
> don't recall the syntax.
>


Good point. I've had mysterious crashes disappear after creating a new
profile in Firefox and Thunderbird.

Regards,

Clifford Ilkay

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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-13 Thread Andrej Marjan via talk 
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Alvin Starr via talk 
wrote:

>
> It would be nice to have the ability to run multiple browsers that are
> independent of each other on the same desktop as the same user but Chrome
> and Firefox keep their context on a per user basis.
>
>
Firefox supports multiple user profiles and you can run separate browser
instances concurrently using separate profiles. Look into the profile
manager -
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profile-manager-create-and-remove-firefox-profiles

You can invoke multiple named profiles from the commandline too, but I
don't recall the syntax.
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread Clifford Ilkay via talk 
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:51 PM, o1bigtenor  wrote:

> OK - - - you think 16 GB of ram is lots.
>


I didn't say it was "lots". I said that is what I have and the majority of
people have that or less. My motherboard doesn't support any more RAM or
I'd put more in.



> Sorry - - - there's quite a bit more in this box.
>


"Quite a bit more" doesn't communicate anything useful.


>
> I have the hardware to run any kind of serious software.
>


What is "serious software"? As opposed to what?



> That's why I'm peeved at wimpy software.
>


"Wimpy software"... not helpful in diagnosing and flags you as a potential
crank.



> One thing I find fascinating is that the issues that I've tried to
> communicate to the dev team are usually ignored or pooh poohed, like here.
>


If you have been communicating with the dev team the way you've been
communicating here, I'm not surprised.

Answering the following questions might help the dev team resolve the
problem.

Which sites are you on? Exactly how many tabs did you have open? What did
RAM, CPU, and disk utilization look like before the crash? Have you cleared
your cache? Which extensions are you running? Have you run with extensions
disabled? What were you doing when the crash happened? Are the crashes
predictable or repeatable? Which version of the software, operating system,
kernel are you running? Which desktop manager are you running? Are you
running any widgets on said desktop manager? (I had Cinnamon freezing at
random intervals due to a buggy widget.) Which video card and which driver?
Then we have the motherboard, RAM, chipset, CPU. That would be just to
start. You might have to instrument the software to see what the browser
was doing when it crashed and provide logs. It will be time-consuming for
you and for the developers and they still may not be able to replicate the
problem or fix it if they identify the problem.

Here is what will not resolve the problem. You expressing your opinions on
the quality of the software, complaining about how this browser should be
some way other than the way it is, ranting about how the web should be
this, not that, and communicating in a way that is guaranteed to have you
ignored. I'm not say be "nice" in order to get something you want. That
would be manipulative and people have a sixth sense about sniffing out that
inauthenticity and act accordingly.

I'm saying consider that there is a human being on the other side of the
conversation who has their own concerns, motivations, and challenges, just
like you. A little kindness goes a long way. Most software developers take
pride in their work and they love it when they can solve gnarly problems.
They are not your adversaries and if they are treated as if they were, they
will likely not make much effort in helping you. They have no obligation to
help you specifically. You're not paying them or their employer and some of
them might even be contributors who aren't being paid at all.



> When you stress software the cracks start to show. What I would like to
> communicate, but am failing, is that what I'm trying to do should be
> possible - - - that it isn't indicates a need for changes in the software.
>


It could also indicate a need for changes in attitude of the person using
the software. Not many people are inclined to help when you're essentially
trashing their work and have a big chip on your shoulder. Your posts
suggest that you seem to be more committed to doing the digital equivalent
of shaking your fist at the kids while yelling, "Get off my lawn!" than
actually finding a solution.

Regards,

Clifford Ilkay

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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Clifford Ilkay via talk 
wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:22 AM, o1bigtenor via talk 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Alvin Starr via talk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/11/2017 12:29 AM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
>>>
 On 2017-12-10 09:50 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

> 1. You need to set up at least 10 windows in FF.
> 2. You need to find some kind of topics so that you have ranging from
> say 5 to 35 tabs open on EACH of those windows.
>
 I'm feeling some déjà vu here: wasn't it suggested a few months ago that
 50–350 pages open at the same time is way beyond what a general-purpose
 web browser might be expected to display? Each one of those pages can be
 executing arbitrary code of unknown size. Maybe I'm a web protozoan, but
 the findability of tabs drops massively when I've got more than a few in
 even a single window.

 FF57 is much cleaner than before, and is at least as fast as Chrome. You
 can quit FF, then have it restart with all your windows and tabs open.
 The clever part is, it'll only render that tab when it gets focus, so
 you could have hundreds of tabs open yet only a few loaded. So while I'm
 pretty sure it won't fit your needs of an entire Starbucks-load of pages
 in the one browser, it might get a little closer than FF <57.


 The trouble is that more and more services, systems and applications
>>> are using HTML as the interface.
>>> So you will find yourself with pages(tabs) open in your browser instead
>>> of applications open on your desktop.
>>> Typically I run 20 tabs to keep applications I frequently use open and
>>> add on to that things I am working on ... now you have lots of little tabs.
>>>
>>> What I find as a bit nuance is when something crashes your browser it
>>> takes down all your open pages and your getting as much or as little as the
>>> restore on start up gives you.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to have the ability to run multiple browsers that are
>>> independent of each other on the same desktop as the same user but Chrome
>>> and Firefox keep their context on a per user basis.
>>>
>>> I am sure there is some way to get around this but I have not yet been
>>> sufficiently aggravated to figure out the magical incantation.
>>>
>>
>> It sounds like I'm not the only one who has issues with browsers - - -
>> thank you!
>>
>> Perhaps it is time that browsers were split into parts that do separate
>> things,
>> and things that could be managed by the USERS of those browsers rather
>> than by the advertising  (I'll use the word people although I would much
>> rather
>> not include them as such) people that think they do own my desktop.
>>
>> If the browser coders were actually listening to their users this would
>> have
>> already been happening!
>>
>
>
> Most people do not have hundreds of tabs open. If I were leading the team
> developing Firefox, I would only investigate that issue to determine if
> it's a symptom of some bug that doesn't manifest itself unless the system
> is stressed like that or merely a resource exhaustion issue. If it's the
> latter, I would make it a low priority and concentrate on the higher
> priority issues. If I were inclined to investigate this issue, I'd want to
> know lots of details about the hardware environment in which the browser is
> running, the sites that are open, which extensions are installed, and I
> would not even bother listening to a user who hasn't cleared their cache
> completely and tried running with no extensions. There are simply too many
> variables there to point the finger at the browser implementation before
> looking at more likely scenarios. For instance, you have not mentioned how
> much RAM you have. I also tend to have many tabs open and I have 16GB of
> RAM on my desktop machine. I'll notice that Chrome will often chew up the
> majority of that RAM and the machine will start swapping. When that
> happens, things will slow to a crawl and I'll just restart the entire
> machine just to clean things up. I don't blame the browser for that. If
> you're like most people, you're unlikely to have more than 16GB of RAM on
> your machine and in fact, you're likely to have less. Just because you can
> open hundreds of tabs doesn't mean that it's a good idea to do so.
>

OK - - - you think 16 GB of ram is lots. Sorry - - - there's quite a bit
more in this box.
I have the hardware to run any kind of serious software.
That's why I'm peeved at wimpy software.

One thing I find fascinating is that the issues that I've tried to
communicate to the dev team are usually ignored or pooh poohed, like here.
When you stress software the cracks start to show. What I would like to
communicate, but am failing, is that what I'm trying to do should be
possible - - - that it isn't indicates a need for changes in the software.

But of course - -

Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread Clifford Ilkay via talk 
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:22 AM, o1bigtenor via talk 
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Alvin Starr via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/11/2017 12:29 AM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-12-10 09:50 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
>>>
 1. You need to set up at least 10 windows in FF.
 2. You need to find some kind of topics so that you have ranging from
 say 5 to 35 tabs open on EACH of those windows.

>>> I'm feeling some déjà vu here: wasn't it suggested a few months ago that
>>> 50–350 pages open at the same time is way beyond what a general-purpose
>>> web browser might be expected to display? Each one of those pages can be
>>> executing arbitrary code of unknown size. Maybe I'm a web protozoan, but
>>> the findability of tabs drops massively when I've got more than a few in
>>> even a single window.
>>>
>>> FF57 is much cleaner than before, and is at least as fast as Chrome. You
>>> can quit FF, then have it restart with all your windows and tabs open.
>>> The clever part is, it'll only render that tab when it gets focus, so
>>> you could have hundreds of tabs open yet only a few loaded. So while I'm
>>> pretty sure it won't fit your needs of an entire Starbucks-load of pages
>>> in the one browser, it might get a little closer than FF <57.
>>>
>>>
>>> The trouble is that more and more services, systems and applications are
>> using HTML as the interface.
>> So you will find yourself with pages(tabs) open in your browser instead
>> of applications open on your desktop.
>> Typically I run 20 tabs to keep applications I frequently use open and
>> add on to that things I am working on ... now you have lots of little tabs.
>>
>> What I find as a bit nuance is when something crashes your browser it
>> takes down all your open pages and your getting as much or as little as the
>> restore on start up gives you.
>>
>> It would be nice to have the ability to run multiple browsers that are
>> independent of each other on the same desktop as the same user but Chrome
>> and Firefox keep their context on a per user basis.
>>
>> I am sure there is some way to get around this but I have not yet been
>> sufficiently aggravated to figure out the magical incantation.
>>
>
> It sounds like I'm not the only one who has issues with browsers - - -
> thank you!
>
> Perhaps it is time that browsers were split into parts that do separate
> things,
> and things that could be managed by the USERS of those browsers rather
> than by the advertising  (I'll use the word people although I would much
> rather
> not include them as such) people that think they do own my desktop.
>
> If the browser coders were actually listening to their users this would
> have
> already been happening!
>


Most people do not have hundreds of tabs open. If I were leading the team
developing Firefox, I would only investigate that issue to determine if
it's a symptom of some bug that doesn't manifest itself unless the system
is stressed like that or merely a resource exhaustion issue. If it's the
latter, I would make it a low priority and concentrate on the higher
priority issues. If I were inclined to investigate this issue, I'd want to
know lots of details about the hardware environment in which the browser is
running, the sites that are open, which extensions are installed, and I
would not even bother listening to a user who hasn't cleared their cache
completely and tried running with no extensions. There are simply too many
variables there to point the finger at the browser implementation before
looking at more likely scenarios. For instance, you have not mentioned how
much RAM you have. I also tend to have many tabs open and I have 16GB of
RAM on my desktop machine. I'll notice that Chrome will often chew up the
majority of that RAM and the machine will start swapping. When that
happens, things will slow to a crawl and I'll just restart the entire
machine just to clean things up. I don't blame the browser for that. If
you're like most people, you're unlikely to have more than 16GB of RAM on
your machine and in fact, you're likely to have less. Just because you can
open hundreds of tabs doesn't mean that it's a good idea to do so.

Having said that, Stewart (I think) has already explained that Firefox 57
and later has lower resource utilization for inactive tabs. That seems like
a win.

As for why more services, systems, and applications are using HTML as the
interface, I can answer that. Cost. I've been working on a healthcare
application that was implemented using a proprietary language that can only
be deployed on Windows or macOS desktops. That precludes an entire category
of devices that people use, like tablets. If we do not provide a means for
our customers to be able to use tablets where appropriate, we will
eventually have no customers. When we analyzed this situation, it made no
sense to have three different codebases, one for desktops, one for iOS and
one for

Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
| From: o1bigtenor via talk 

| Sorry Dave - - - - I'm finding your posts actually quite funny.

I don't see anything funny here.  Please explain.

| I have
| found browsers
| to be this fairly useless things that purport to do x and don't do it even
| tolerably

If they are useless, don't use them.

The trouble is that they are not just useful, they are almost
indispensible in the modern world.

Inaccurate complaints get in the way of solutions.

| and
| when I forward a list of security issues you tell me that 'some' of them
| wouldn't be there
| if they used programming language x (or is it y or z or does it matter?).

He didn't say x or y or z.  You know he said Rust.  Why did you 
misrepresent what he said?

Surely preventing some bugs automatically is a Good Thing.  Especially
if they are bugs that seem to afflict programs actually used by a lot
of people.

| As long as they have these ever reoccurring list of security issues - - -
| well
| they ALL suck - - - fair enough?

All bugs are annoying.  Some are dangerous.  All large software must be 
presumed to have bugs.  What's your point?

You've already said that you "know precious little about programming 
languages."  So don't pontificate about them.

Talking about browsers is fair game: you use them and have tried a
bunch.  I suggest creating a different (sub?) thread.
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 9:25 AM, David Mason via talk 
wrote:

> On 12 December 2017 at 08:48, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:
>
>> A little tidbit for you as you continue your praise of the 'new' ff! (Yes
>> I understand
>> that chromium isn't ff but they both suffer under the same kind of
>> programming
>> - - - at least IMO!).
>>
>
> Which is exactly what ff57's use of Rust addresses.
>
>
>> Michael Gilbert 
>> 5:03 AM (2 hours ago)
>> to debian-securit.
>>
>
> Of the 17 Chrome vulnerabilities listed, 7 would never have happened if
> they were using Rust instead of C++.
>
>
Sorry Dave - - - - I'm finding your posts actually quite funny. I have
found browsers
to be this fairly useless things that purport to do x and don't do it even
tolerably and
when I forward a list of security issues you tell me that 'some' of them
wouldn't be there
if they used programming language x (or is it y or z or does it matter?).

As long as they have these ever reoccurring list of security issues - - -
well
they ALL suck - - - fair enough?

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread David Mason via talk 
On 12 December 2017 at 08:48, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:

> A little tidbit for you as you continue your praise of the 'new' ff! (Yes
> I understand
> that chromium isn't ff but they both suffer under the same kind of
> programming
> - - - at least IMO!).
>

Which is exactly what ff57's use of Rust addresses.


> Michael Gilbert 
> 5:03 AM (2 hours ago)
> to debian-securit.
>

Of the 17 Chrome vulnerabilities listed, 7 would never have happened if
they were using Rust instead of C++.

../Dave
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Jamon Camisso via talk 
wrote:

> On 2017-12-10 06:28 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> > So I know precious little about programming languages. I looked up 'Rust
> > programming language'.
> >
> > Wikipedia (which can often be useful if not always totally accurate)
> > listed it as:
> >
> >  " . . . a systems programming language sponsored by Mozilla Research,
> > which describes it as a "safe, concurrent, practical language,"
> > supporting functional and imperative-procedural paradigms. Rust is
> > syntactically similar to C++, but its designers intend it to provide
> > better memory safety while maintaining performance."
> >
> > OK - - - sponsored by Mozilla (AIUI that sort means that its their baby)
> > and its to '. . . provide better memory safety . . ." .
> > Well given how Mozilla products work for me - - - they don't really know
> > anything about how to use memory. The only way I can keep using FF is to
> > kill it every couple three days and then restart it. Somehow that isn't
> > my idea of memory usage done well so if that's Rust - - - well then
> > that's a total non-starter for me!
>
> I think you'll be surprised at how well the latest Firefox 57 performs.
> It's their first release featuring core browser components written in Rust.
>
> Fast and stable for me. Give it a try and see if your characterization
> above still holds.
>
>
A little tidbit for you as you continue your praise of the 'new' ff! (Yes I
understand
that chromium isn't ff but they both suffer under the same kind of
programming
- - - at least IMO!).

Michael Gilbert 
5:03 AM (2 hours ago)
to debian-securit.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

- -
Debian Security Advisory DSA-4064-1   secur...@debian.org
https://www.debian.org/security/  Michael Gilbert
December 12, 2017 https://www.debian.org/security/faq
- -

Package: chromium-browser
CVE ID : CVE-2017-15407 CVE-2017-15408 CVE-2017-15409 CVE-2017-15410
 CVE-2017-15411 CVE-2017-15413 CVE-2017-15415 CVE-2017-15416
 CVE-2017-15417 CVE-2017-15418 CVE-2017-15419 CVE-2017-15420
 CVE-2017-15423 CVE-2017-15424 CVE-2017-15425 CVE-2017-15426
 CVE-2017-15427

Several vulnerabilities have been discovered in the chromium web browser.

CVE-2017-15407

Ned Williamson discovered an out-of-bounds write issue.

CVE-2017-15408

Ke Liu discovered a heap overflow issue in the pdfium library.

CVE-2017-15409

An out-of-bounds write issue was discovered in the skia library.

CVE-2017-15410

Luat Nguyen discovered a use-after-free issue in the pdfium library.

CVE-2017-15411

Luat Nguyen discovered a use-after-free issue in the pdfium library.

CVE-2017-15413

Gaurav Dewan discovered a type confusion issue.

CVE-2017-15415

Viktor Brange discovered an information disclosure issue.

CVE-2017-15416

Ned Williamson discovered an out-of-bounds read issue.

CVE-2017-15417

Max May discovered an information disclosure issue in the skia
library.

CVE-2017-15418

Kushal Arvind Shah discovered an uninitialized value in the skia
library.

CVE-2017-15419

Jun Kokatsu discoved an information disclosure issue.

CVE-2017-15420

WenXu Wu discovered a URL spoofing issue.

CVE-2017-15423

Greg Hudson discovered an issue in the boringssl library.

CVE-2017-15424

Khalil Zhani discovered a URL spoofing issue.

CVE-2017-15425

xisigr discovered a URL spoofing issue.

CVE-2017-15426

WenXu Wu discovered a URL spoofing issue.

CVE-2017-15427

Junaid Farhan discovered an issue with the omnibox.

For the stable distribution (stretch), these problems have been fixed in
version 63.0.3239.84-1~deb9u1.

We recommend that you upgrade your chromium-browser packages.

For the detailed security status of chromium-browser please refer to
its security tracker page at:
https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/chromium-browser

Further information about Debian Security Advisories, how to apply
these updates to your system and frequently asked questions can be
found at: https://www.debian.org/security/

Mailing list: debian-security-annou...@lists.debian.org
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 9:13 AM, David Mason via talk 
wrote:

> On 11 December 2017 at 07:20, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:
>
>> I've tried vivaldi, min, chromium (that's chrome on linux), opera and ff.
>> They all crap out. FF fails perhaps the best - - - it just gets slow.
>> Opera just dies with no warnings at all! I don't like getting tracked ALL
>> the time so chromium or variants are out.
>>
>
> FF57 is pretty awesome. Rust will help it become even better.
>
> If all you want to do is rant that all browsers crap out under certain
> loads, can we say, "so stipulated" and move on?
>
> There's also Brave https://brave.com (with Brendan Eich behind it) which
> might meet your needs better.
>
> I sure don't mind so stipulating but I do find it quite interesting that
there are
more than a few who are also quite frustrated by the present 'state of the
art',
if it could be called even that, of browserdom.

By the way - - - you don't HAVE to read the posts if you're not interested
in
what's being expressed.

Regards

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-12 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Alvin Starr via talk 
wrote:

> On 12/11/2017 12:29 AM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
>
>> On 2017-12-10 09:50 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
>>
>>> 1. You need to set up at least 10 windows in FF.
>>> 2. You need to find some kind of topics so that you have ranging from
>>> say 5 to 35 tabs open on EACH of those windows.
>>>
>> I'm feeling some déjà vu here: wasn't it suggested a few months ago that
>> 50–350 pages open at the same time is way beyond what a general-purpose
>> web browser might be expected to display? Each one of those pages can be
>> executing arbitrary code of unknown size. Maybe I'm a web protozoan, but
>> the findability of tabs drops massively when I've got more than a few in
>> even a single window.
>>
>> FF57 is much cleaner than before, and is at least as fast as Chrome. You
>> can quit FF, then have it restart with all your windows and tabs open.
>> The clever part is, it'll only render that tab when it gets focus, so
>> you could have hundreds of tabs open yet only a few loaded. So while I'm
>> pretty sure it won't fit your needs of an entire Starbucks-load of pages
>> in the one browser, it might get a little closer than FF <57.
>>
>>
>> The trouble is that more and more services, systems and applications are
> using HTML as the interface.
> So you will find yourself with pages(tabs) open in your browser instead of
> applications open on your desktop.
> Typically I run 20 tabs to keep applications I frequently use open and add
> on to that things I am working on ... now you have lots of little tabs.
>
> What I find as a bit nuance is when something crashes your browser it
> takes down all your open pages and your getting as much or as little as the
> restore on start up gives you.
>
> It would be nice to have the ability to run multiple browsers that are
> independent of each other on the same desktop as the same user but Chrome
> and Firefox keep their context on a per user basis.
>
> I am sure there is some way to get around this but I have not yet been
> sufficiently aggravated to figure out the magical incantation.
>

It sounds like I'm not the only one who has issues with browsers - - -
thank you!

Perhaps it is time that browsers were split into parts that do separate
things,
and things that could be managed by the USERS of those browsers rather
than by the advertising  (I'll use the word people although I would much
rather
not include them as such) people that think they do own my desktop.

If the browser coders were actually listening to their users this would
have
already been happening!

Thanking you for your input!

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-11 Thread David Mason via talk 
On 11 December 2017 at 07:20, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:

> I've tried vivaldi, min, chromium (that's chrome on linux), opera and ff.
> They all crap out. FF fails perhaps the best - - - it just gets slow.
> Opera just dies with no warnings at all! I don't like getting tracked ALL
> the time so chromium or variants are out.
>

FF57 is pretty awesome. Rust will help it become even better.

If all you want to do is rant that all browsers crap out under certain
loads, can we say, "so stipulated" and move on?

There's also Brave https://brave.com (with Brendan Eich behind it) which
might meet your needs better.

../Dave
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-11 Thread Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk 
Pls. see comments below.
  - Original Message - 
  From: o1bigtenor via talk 
  To: D. Hugh Redelmeier ; GTALUG Talk 
  Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 6:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn 
Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.



  On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:27 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
 wrote:

| From: o1bigtenor via talk 

| On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:06 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
| talk@gtalug.org> wrote:




  I have a contact [contract?] that doesn't allow any javascript - - - I'm 
starting to 

  wonder if that might be quite preferable to the bs that the web is becoming. 

  +1 !!!

  A couple of years ago, I developed a simple PHP web app that registers 
members of a club in an SQL database (first using MySQL, then switched to 
PosgreSQL but now planning to switch to BerkeleyDB for "zero admin" 
simplicity.), 

  This simple PHP web app enables visitors to join the club, manage their club 
subscription and also serves club members premiunm content. (The PHP app is 
fully tested but not yet online.) 

  here are a few static pages for the same website already demoed online at 
http://aspetrie.net/ But the PHP app is not online yet.And the website is not 
yet operating under its eventual domain name. And be advised that there has 
been no tuning done at all for the web page demo site.

  * * *
  * * *

  I've always been an engineer with a ferocious focus on resource efficiency. 
Being a frugal SOB, retired and with few time pressures, I still use a plain 
old twisted-copper-pair landline telephone dialup modem connection for my 
Internet access (usually connnects at around 46 Kbps (that's K bits per 
second). There's always something else useful I can do, while waiting for 
bloated web pages that take a long time to load.

  When I designed the website and PHP app, I set a 10-second maximum page load 
time target for users on slow landline dialup connections. Same deal for static 
pages as for dynamic pages served by the PHP app.

  The technology that this website promotes is a highly democratic solution to 
expressway traffic congestion, a solution that treats all drivers, rich and 
poor, with exactly the same priority and respect.

  So the website also has to convey the same overriding ethic -- all visitors 
are welcome, and their time is equally valuable, so even the Internet user who 
can barely afford any Internet connection at all, should get pages displayed 
with maximum 10-second response time.

  * * *
  * * *

  No way was I ever going to buy in to all that Javascript BS.

  It makes absoutely no sense to me that a web app would presumptuously load 
the same Javascript crud again and again, into every single instance of web 
browser visitng my website. Wasting bandwidth. Wasting time.

  So, I decided that the web browser using my website and PHP app, is just 
going to be a plain HTML2 "dumb terminal". The webaite and PHP app should work 
with the lowest common denominator among web browsers.

  Simplicity rocks !!

  Steve



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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-11 Thread Alvin Starr via talk 

On 12/11/2017 12:29 AM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

On 2017-12-10 09:50 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

1. You need to set up at least 10 windows in FF.
2. You need to find some kind of topics so that you have ranging from
say 5 to 35 tabs open on EACH of those windows.

I'm feeling some déjà vu here: wasn't it suggested a few months ago that
50–350 pages open at the same time is way beyond what a general-purpose
web browser might be expected to display? Each one of those pages can be
executing arbitrary code of unknown size. Maybe I'm a web protozoan, but
the findability of tabs drops massively when I've got more than a few in
even a single window.

FF57 is much cleaner than before, and is at least as fast as Chrome. You
can quit FF, then have it restart with all your windows and tabs open.
The clever part is, it'll only render that tab when it gets focus, so
you could have hundreds of tabs open yet only a few loaded. So while I'm
pretty sure it won't fit your needs of an entire Starbucks-load of pages
in the one browser, it might get a little closer than FF <57.


The trouble is that more and more services, systems and applications are 
using HTML as the interface.
So you will find yourself with pages(tabs) open in your browser instead 
of applications open on your desktop.
Typically I run 20 tabs to keep applications I frequently use open and 
add on to that things I am working on ... now you have lots of little tabs.


What I find as a bit nuance is when something crashes your browser it 
takes down all your open pages and your getting as much or as little as 
the restore on start up gives you.


It would be nice to have the ability to run multiple browsers that are 
independent of each other on the same desktop as the same user but 
Chrome and Firefox keep their context on a per user basis.


I am sure there is some way to get around this but I have not yet been 
sufficiently aggravated to figure out the magical incantation.




--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-11 Thread Christopher Browne via talk 
I would judge that an unjust characterization of Rust...

Web browsers these days pretty much all suffer from memory "leak" issues,
much of which falls from the proliferation of web sites that make prolific
use of (often horribly coded) JavaScript that draw in all sorts of cruddy
code, intentionally surveiling their users.

Don't blame Mozilla for the evils of (say) The Verge or Facebook...

Back to Rust, Mozilla started with a pretty horrid code base in the C++
code inherited from Netscape that they have been "chasing" ever since.
They started out a big step "behind" in that they began with the burden of
needing to drop out Motif GUI code and had to fill that hole with
something, which turned out to be GTK.  That was a big task, and there were
lots of messes in the codebase as a result

The point of Rust is surely not "oh, they're idiots and the language should
be roundly ignored"; rather, Mozilla correctly recognized that their code
base had a lot of memory leak problems, and decided to adopt a language
designed to directly attack such problems.

Integration of Rust code into deployed versions of Firefox only took place
in the last couple of months, and it is worth noting that people are
observing considerable improvement in the speed of Firefox in these
versions.  That points towards your conclusion being quite wrongly placed.

This does not by any means imply that you *must* use Rust, just that the
reasons you're pointing at are not excellent reasons to ignore it.
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-11 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> On 2017-12-10 09:50 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> >
> > 1. You need to set up at least 10 windows in FF.
> > 2. You need to find some kind of topics so that you have ranging from
> > say 5 to 35 tabs open on EACH of those windows.
>
> I'm feeling some déjà vu here: wasn't it suggested a few months ago that
> 50–350 pages open at the same time is way beyond what a general-purpose
> web browser might be expected to display? Each one of those pages can be
> executing arbitrary code of unknown size. Maybe I'm a web protozoan, but
> the findability of tabs drops massively when I've got more than a few in
> even a single window.
>

OK - - - I'll bite.

I've tried vivaldi, min, chromium (that's chrome on linux), opera and ff.
They all crap out. FF fails perhaps the best - - - it just gets slow.
Opera just dies with no warnings at all! I don't like getting tracked ALL
the time so chromium or variants are out.

Is there a heavy-duty web browser?
If there is - - - I can't find it!
I have filed a number of requests at ff but its impossible to connect with
a 'real' developer so I stopped - - - total waste of time filing any kind
of
reports there. So I have tried to do the right thing but the development
team
doesn't seem to connect with the outside world so all that's left is to
complain
about garbage development!

Regards

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-10 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Jamon Camisso via talk 
wrote:

> On 2017-12-10 06:13 PM, o1bigtenor wrote:
> >> I think you'll be surprised at how well the latest Firefox 57 performs.
> >> It's their first release featuring core browser components written in
> Rust.
> >>
> >> Fast and stable for me. Give it a try and see if your characterization
> >> above still holds.
> >>
> >
> > Somehow - - - - I've been hearing similar for about what - - - maybe
> about
> > 4 or 5
> > years. You really think its true this time? (After watching maybe 20+
> > upgrades and
> > its still the same mess for how it works - - - I'm more than a little
> > skeptical!)
>
> https://blog.rust-lang.org/2017/11/14/Fearless-Concurrency-In-Firefox-
> Quantum.html
> is a good write up on how rust is used in Firefox's newest release (57).
> It is a completely new CSS engine written in Rust that runs within the
> browser itself.
>
> From my reading, rust enabled the FF devs to parallelize CSS rendering
> across CPU cores relatively easily with thread safety, meaning faster
> page rendering and fewer crashes or lock ups for you and me.
>
> It also sounds like this is just the beginning of rust in Firefox, and I
> for one look forward to seeing other components of the browser running
> rust for the performance and stability it promises.
>
> Somehow - - - with quite a few years of promises saying exactly what they
are
saying this time - - - I am not convinced that its any better than the last
times
they said the same things.

If you are convinced that it is total wonderful I would ask that you
experiment on
YOUR system.

1. You need to set up at least 10 windows in FF.
2. You need to find some kind of topics so that you have ranging from say 5
to
 35 tabs open on EACH of those windows.
3. You will need to be using at least 20% of those tabs at least multiple
times a
day and 60% of them over 5 days.

The tabs can be somewhat related in content but To compare to what I'm
doing
you need to be in at least 4 or 5 significantly different areas of though.

Let me know how well things are going in about a week - - - I'm assuming
that
you will be doing speed tests using TestMy.net html5 speed tests at least
2 or 3 x per day so that any change can be observed.

If your test shows that there is less than a 5% slowdown I will accept that
the new version works as they are promising - - - any more than about 7%
speed change or ANY need for killall - - - its the same stuff - - - all
powder
and fluff and precious little substance!

Regards

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-10 Thread Clifford Ilkay via talk 
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 6:13 PM, o1bigtenor via talk 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Jamon Camisso via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-12-10 06:28 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
>> > So I know precious little about programming languages. I looked up 'Rust
>> > programming language'.
>> >
>> > Wikipedia (which can often be useful if not always totally accurate)
>> > listed it as:
>> >
>> >  " . . . a systems programming language sponsored by Mozilla Research,
>> > which describes it as a "safe, concurrent, practical language,"
>> > supporting functional and imperative-procedural paradigms. Rust is
>> > syntactically similar to C++, but its designers intend it to provide
>> > better memory safety while maintaining performance."
>> >
>> > OK - - - sponsored by Mozilla (AIUI that sort means that its their baby)
>> > and its to '. . . provide better memory safety . . ." .
>> > Well given how Mozilla products work for me - - - they don't really know
>> > anything about how to use memory. The only way I can keep using FF is to
>> > kill it every couple three days and then restart it. Somehow that isn't
>> > my idea of memory usage done well so if that's Rust - - - well then
>> > that's a total non-starter for me!
>>
>> I think you'll be surprised at how well the latest Firefox 57 performs.
>> It's their first release featuring core browser components written in
>> Rust.
>>
>> Fast and stable for me. Give it a try and see if your characterization
>> above still holds.
>>
>
> Somehow - - - - I've been hearing similar for about what - - - maybe about
> 4 or 5
> years. You really think its true this time? (After watching maybe 20+
> upgrades and
> its still the same mess for how it works - - - I'm more than a little
> skeptical!)
>
> Dee
>


The problems that you describe are very unlikely to have anything to do
with the language that was used to implement the browser or even Firefox
specifically. I have the same issues with Chrome sometimes and I tend to
have dozens of open tabs with a Session Saver extension, which means the
entire browsing history of dozens of tabs has to be managed. The culprit in
many of the browser crashes seems to be JavaScript heavy sites. I use some
very complex Google Sheets and I notice I get more freezes in Chrome when I
do. I'll take the occasional crash or freeze in exchange for the ability to
have a spreadsheet that I can share with collaborators. I also use the
Suspender extension. That suspends tabs that aren't active to cut down on
resource consumption. It seems to do that well enough. Clicking on the tab
to make it active and then clicking on the body of the page wakes up the
tab.

The days of HTML and CSS only sites are gone. Most sites rely on
JavaScript, sometimes for frivolous things, but often for useful things.
The modern web stack is horrifically complex. The JS engines in browsers
are relatively slow to implement new ECMAScript (ES) releases so we end up
using transpilers to write modern JS/ES that transpile to the older
versions supported by browsers. In some cases, we're not even using JS/ES.
We're using other languages that transpile to ES <
https://github.com/jashkenas/coffeescript/wiki/list-of-languages-that-compile-to-js>.
That it works as well as it does is a minor miracle.

Regards,

Clifford Ilkay

+1 647-778-8696
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-10 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Jamon Camisso via talk 
wrote:

> On 2017-12-10 06:28 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> > So I know precious little about programming languages. I looked up 'Rust
> > programming language'.
> >
> > Wikipedia (which can often be useful if not always totally accurate)
> > listed it as:
> >
> >  " . . . a systems programming language sponsored by Mozilla Research,
> > which describes it as a "safe, concurrent, practical language,"
> > supporting functional and imperative-procedural paradigms. Rust is
> > syntactically similar to C++, but its designers intend it to provide
> > better memory safety while maintaining performance."
> >
> > OK - - - sponsored by Mozilla (AIUI that sort means that its their baby)
> > and its to '. . . provide better memory safety . . ." .
> > Well given how Mozilla products work for me - - - they don't really know
> > anything about how to use memory. The only way I can keep using FF is to
> > kill it every couple three days and then restart it. Somehow that isn't
> > my idea of memory usage done well so if that's Rust - - - well then
> > that's a total non-starter for me!
>
> I think you'll be surprised at how well the latest Firefox 57 performs.
> It's their first release featuring core browser components written in Rust.
>
> Fast and stable for me. Give it a try and see if your characterization
> above still holds.
>

Somehow - - - - I've been hearing similar for about what - - - maybe about
4 or 5
years. You really think its true this time? (After watching maybe 20+
upgrades and
its still the same mess for how it works - - - I'm more than a little
skeptical!)

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-10 Thread D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
| From: o1bigtenor via talk 

| On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:06 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
| talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

| > I spend most of my programming time in C.  The next language I intend
| > to use is Rust.  I like its ideas but proof of the pudding is in the
| > eating.  The cases where I would recommend C for new projects are few
| > and far between.
| >
| 
| So I know precious little about programming languages. I looked up 'Rust
| programming language'.
| 
| Wikipedia (which can often be useful if not always totally accurate)

If it isn't accurate, it is your fault.  Fix it.  That's what I do.

| listed it as:


|  " . . . a systems programming language sponsored by Mozilla Research,
| which describes it as a "safe, concurrent, practical language," supporting
| functional and imperative-procedural paradigms. Rust is syntactically
| similar to C++, but its designers intend it to provide better memory safety
| while maintaining performance."
| 
| OK - - - sponsored by Mozilla (AIUI that sort means that its their baby)

It was started by Graydon Hoare (ex Torontonian) while at Mozilla.
Mozilla sponsored it but many contributors are now from outside.  It
really seems to be an open project.  And one with a lot of momentum.

| and its to '. . . provide better memory safety . . ." .
| Well given how Mozilla products work for me - - - they don't really know
| anything about how to use memory.

Those two are mostly unrelated.  Memory safety is mostly about
avoiding bugs.  Of course memory leaks, a kind of bug, can lead to
excessive memory use.

| The only way I can keep using FF is to
| kill it every couple three days and then restart it.

Firefox's behaviour is OK for me.  Not perfect.  But some web pages
seem to suck up a lot of resources.

For example, my normal way of reading Ars Technica ceased to work in
the last few months:  from the front page, middle-click on each
apparently interesting link (opening it in a new tab) and then go back
and read each tab.

I've never run Flash on my desktop.  That has saved me from a lot of
crud.  But now the crud is apparently migrating to javascript or
HTML5.

For some reason, javascript crap seems to be a global burden.  It
would make sense to suspend the crap of a page when it isn't visible
(perhaps I'm naive).

I don't suppress ads.  I don't think that's fair.  But I do have
"tracking protection" on.  Some sites claim that I'm blocking ads.
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-10 Thread Jamon Camisso via talk 
On 2017-12-10 06:28 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> So I know precious little about programming languages. I looked up 'Rust
> programming language'.
> 
> Wikipedia (which can often be useful if not always totally accurate)
> listed it as:
> 
>  " . . . a systems programming language sponsored by Mozilla Research,
> which describes it as a "safe, concurrent, practical language,"
> supporting functional and imperative-procedural paradigms. Rust is
> syntactically similar to C++, but its designers intend it to provide
> better memory safety while maintaining performance."
> 
> OK - - - sponsored by Mozilla (AIUI that sort means that its their baby)
> and its to '. . . provide better memory safety . . ." .
> Well given how Mozilla products work for me - - - they don't really know
> anything about how to use memory. The only way I can keep using FF is to
> kill it every couple three days and then restart it. Somehow that isn't
> my idea of memory usage done well so if that's Rust - - - well then
> that's a total non-starter for me!

I think you'll be surprised at how well the latest Firefox 57 performs.
It's their first release featuring core browser components written in Rust.

Fast and stable for me. Give it a try and see if your characterization
above still holds.

Cheers, Jamon
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Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.

2017-12-10 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:06 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> | From: ted leslie via talk 
>
> snip
>
> I spend most of my programming time in C.  The next language I intend
> to use is Rust.  I like its ideas but proof of the pudding is in the
> eating.  The cases where I would recommend C for new projects are few
> and far between.
>

So I know precious little about programming languages. I looked up 'Rust
programming language'.

Wikipedia (which can often be useful if not always totally accurate) listed
it as:

 " . . . a systems programming language sponsored by Mozilla Research,
which describes it as a "safe, concurrent, practical language," supporting
functional and imperative-procedural paradigms. Rust is syntactically
similar to C++, but its designers intend it to provide better memory safety
while maintaining performance."

OK - - - sponsored by Mozilla (AIUI that sort means that its their baby)
and its to '. . . provide better memory safety . . ." .
Well given how Mozilla products work for me - - - they don't really know
anything about how to use memory. The only way I can keep using FF is to
kill it every couple three days and then restart it. Somehow that isn't my
idea of memory usage done well so if that's Rust - - - well then that's a
total non-starter for me!

Dee
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