That's a great idea! It could help build community but also make it easier
to check edits to make sure they are ok. Maybe this could be built into one
of the QA/QC tools?
Andrew
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
Andrew Wiseman writes:
We talked about this
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Andrew Wiseman awise...@gmail.com wrote:
That's a great idea! It could help build community but also make it easier
to check edits to make sure they are ok. Maybe this could be built into one
of the QA/QC tools?
I may be missing something but Who Did It [1]
Andrew Wiseman writes:
We talked about this a bit at the HOT Birds of a Feather at State of the
Map -- to me it's a great idea. Why not ask some basic (and purely
optional) information when people join OSM, with some fields for that info,
IMHO, we should allow people to use OSM tools to
What I've been mulling over is the home location data on the
profile. Right now it's close to useless. I'd like to be able to set
multiple areas (not points) and rate them can survey / good local
knowledge / particularly interested.
^^^ This is an excellent idea and a feature I would
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 4:07 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com
wrote:
What I've been mulling over is the home location data on the
profile. Right now it's close to useless. I'd like to be able to set
multiple areas (not points) and rate them can survey / good local
knowledge /
This Friday night I'm going to close out the quick, three question survey
on remote mapping thread. If you haven't answered the survey already, go to
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/TRQYHFP to answer the three questions.
Clifford
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 8:51 AM, Mikel Maron mikel.ma...@gmail.com wrote:
A map with all the buildings can look done in the standard rendering,
but of course we know it's not done. Is there a way to visualize the map to
take into account the depth and local knowledge of the data? So that the
On Tuesday 16 June 2015, Alex Barth wrote:
- How can we show better where data is stale?
- Can we show what's missing?
Actually these two points well illustrate an important difference -
something is missing because someone misses it - this is a subjective
criterion. Much of the discussion
Hi,
On 06/15/2015 09:55 PM, john whelan wrote:
Perhaps we need something like the HOT validation system in OSM more
generally but I don't know how it would work. Locally OSM mappers have
used a rich range of tags, I'd say about 25% other than highways didn't
get rendered for one reason or
Please consult all of my previous responses to the previous threads on this
identical topic for the responses I would write to the inevitable responses
to this thread.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com
wrote:
I was imagining a new OSM editing program and
I was imagining a new OSM editing program and thought about making
provisions in the API for editor programs to wait for edits to be
approved (so that it's still posted as the actual user). But it would
get too tricky, considering just conflicts for instance. So in this
form it's unsuitable.
The
Am 16.06.2015 um 01:40 schrieb Clifford Snow:
Following this thread makes me wonder how people feel about some of the
issues raised. The link below is quick survey about some of the issues
raised in the thread. Please take a minute or two to respond. If I get
sufficient answers I will
On 16/06/2015, Andrew Wiseman awise...@gmail.com wrote:
Something else semi-related that might be a terrible idea: I wonder if
there ought to be some way to show which edits are by remote mappers and by
locals? Could you do this automatically via IP address or something by
seeing who was
Hi,
Am 2015-06-15 um 22:49 schrieb Pierre Béland:
This is the ransom of success for OSM, being exposed to the medias, the
international organizations recognizing our significant contribution to such
humanitarian responses.
OSM might be more in media but which OSM? It is not the
On 15/06/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
Am 15.06.2015 um 01:24 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
There was a humours suggestion to map animal paths, rejected as not
something wanted in OSM.
For the record: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Pascal%20Cuoq/diary/1
On 15/06/15 11:15, Simon Poole wrote:
All that is lacking is that other apps go to OSMAND rather than trying
to get google maps running ... which only works with a network link?
...
We're really getting substantially off topic now.
Apps on android in general don't have specific other
Also many of our paths started out as animal paths. In some areas they may
be the only way to get from A to B.
Jo
2015-06-15 10:55 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
sent from a phone
Am 15.06.2015 um 01:24 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
There was a humours
On 15/06/15 09:59, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
Do you have any specific ideas on what would make OSM more compeling
in India ? I'm thinking along the lines of working better with cheap
phones and bad/expensive network coverage.Maybe smarter
surveying/editing tools. Maybe a combined Mapillary
Am 15.06.2015 um 11:37 schrieb Lester Caine:
...
All that is lacking is that other apps go to OSMAND rather than trying
to get google maps running ... which only works with a network link?
...
We're really getting substantially off topic now.
Apps on android in general don't have
sent from a phone
Am 15.06.2015 um 01:24 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
There was a humours suggestion to map animal paths, rejected as not something
wanted in OSM.
who in osm would be able to reject what can be mapped?
To some native farmers those paths may be very
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no
personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for fun, for
money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea that runs
There is no remote mapper that I know of that believes they can produce a
better map than a local can ... Sharing the remote burden all over the
world instead of a small local populace, probably with limited internet
connectivity, hardware and leisure time - to me that can only be a good
thing.
Agree. I dont think it should be a hardline stance of local vs remote.
There should be balance. For example, remotely mapping roads is useful for
us since it provides an initial framework for newbies to add POIs.
Indeed, I've written up the same experience with remote building tracing:
On 15/06/2015, Arun Ganesh arun.plane...@gmail.com wrote:
Maps are a relatively new concept in Indian society and is still used only
by a small minority in urban areas in daily life. Naturally one cannot
expect strong OSM communities at this stage till maps gain wider
reach. Remote mapping in
Þann 15.6.2015 10:07, skrifaði Marc Gemis:
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org
mailto:frede...@remote.org wrote:
I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no
personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for
On 15/06/2015, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
You think it's only India that has problems with bad/expensive network
coverage?
Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
could improve things. Since
Simon,
Can you explain to me who the core OSM contributors are?
Is the issue that people doubt the usefulness of the remotely mapped data?
That we don't really believe in our own success?
-Kate
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
Am 15.06.2015 um 04:11
Interesting thread! And I'm glad it's civil.
I think everybody agrees that local mappers are best. But that's obviously
easier said than done. Like Robert said, it requires outreach and some big
efforts to find and empower those local mappers, as many people would never
have seen or thought to
Hoffmann lon...@denofr.de
To: Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Message-ID: 20150614083150.ga20...@denofr.de
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Diversity to me has never just been gender
Hi all:
I have read all the emails of this thread, and found some of the views
about remote/local mapping as well as imports quite interesting. Anyway,
I have to say that, although this conversation can lead to some people
to enrich/modify their views about this subject, it won't lead to real
2015-06-15 20:22 GMT+02:00 Rafael Avila Coya ravilac...@gmail.com:
Hi all:
I have read all the emails of this thread, and found some of the views
about remote/local mapping as well as imports quite interesting. Anyway,
I have to say that, although this conversation can lead to some people
Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
could improve things.
The very simple answer is that most people who know English and can afford
a smartphone already use Google maps which work reasonably well in
Kate
I could go in to great lengths to define what the core mappers are,
perhaps the 5% that provide 95% of the data or the 10'000 that could
easily map the equivalent of a MM-mapping party on their own in an
afternoon and so on.
But that is not the point, Robert was claiming that the remote
Everything is geared towards churning through newbies and generating as
much as possible media coverage, not fast, efficient and quality
coverage of the areas in question. It may have not been intended so from
the very start, but that is definitely what it has turned out to be.
I tend to
: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Message-ID: 20150614083150.ga20...@denofr.de
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Diversity to me has never just been gender. Though it has been shown
that
if you make a place welcoming to women it also makes it more inviting
for
other
: Lundi 15 juin 2015 15h39
Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Kate
I could go in to great lengths to define what the core mappers are,
perhaps the 5% that provide 95% of the data or the 10'000 that could
easily map the equivalent of a MM-mapping party on their own
I'm unsure if we have a good way to compare, but most people introduced to
OSM generally don't stick with it. Are the Missing Maps attrition rates any
different than people who find out about OSM in other ways?
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:55 PM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
Am 15.06.2015 um 22:18 schrieb Arun Ganesh:
Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
could improve things.
The very simple answer is that most people who know English and can
afford a smartphone
On 15/06/2015, Arun Ganesh arun.plane...@gmail.com wrote:
Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
could improve things.
The very simple answer is that most people who know English and can afford
a
Following this thread makes me wonder how people feel about some of the
issues raised. The link below is quick survey about some of the issues
raised in the thread. Please take a minute or two to respond. If I get
sufficient answers I will publish the results.
Am 15.06.2015 um 04:11 schrieb Robert Banick:
...
Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the project
and much more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM contributors, not
to mention sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and perhaps
contribute to the
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 06:11:50PM +, Eros, Emily wrote:
Hi all,
In the midst of the discussion about remote mapping, I couldn¹t help but
notice this comment from Sarah:
In my experience, the issue is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman
but simply that it is not
interesting
2015-06-13 16:37 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
Hi,
I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no
personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for fun, for
money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea that runs
against
And i think there are a lot of other areas in OSM that represent at least as
efficient (and therefore damaging) means of cultural imperialism as remote
mapping.
Acting as devil's advocate, I have a quick question - are you 100% sure
that you are not overthinking stuff? I see discussion after
On 14/06/2015 6:31 PM, Sarah Hoffmann wrote:
The One Map we currently show caters mainly to the overrepresented
tech population (or, in the case of the HOT map, to NGOs) and that
gives the impression that the same is true for our data (which isn't).
So maybe both, the diversity movement and
Hi,
On 06/14/2015 02:12 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
I find this point of view to be astounding in its arrogance and indeed
blatant colonialistic spirit.
Harsh words.
In the final paragraph of your blog post, you write:
In addition the locals are not the only people who will need to
On Sunday 14 June 2015, Sarah Hoffmann wrote:
The One Map we currently show caters mainly to the overrepresented
tech population (or, in the case of the HOT map, to NGOs) and that
gives the impression that the same is true for our data (which
isn't). So maybe both, the diversity movement and
I find this point of view to be astounding in its arrogance and indeed
blatant colonialistic spirit. The noble savages should not be influenced
by us, the decadent Westerners. A sickening insular attitude that I have
not found in similar projects like Project Gutenberg and Wikipedia.
When do
Þann 14.6.2015 12:57, skrifaði Frederik Ramm:
Hi,
On 06/14/2015 02:12 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
I find this point of view to be astounding in its arrogance and indeed
blatant colonialistic spirit.
Harsh words.
In the final paragraph of your blog post, you write:
In addition the
On 6/14/2015 2:57 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
But this is exactly the criticism we're facing - bluntly put:
Westerners need maps of places so they can conquer them by selling
their products and services.
One thing to keep in mind is that often time the people who want to
colonize or exploit
Hi,
On 06/14/2015 11:02 AM, Hans De Kryger wrote:
Isn't the point of remote mapping the ability to pull a large amount of
people from all parts of life together and map an area of need in a
short period of time?
That (disaster mapping) is *one* case, but not the only one; on the
humanitarian
A few points
Full disclosure. The post that touched off this thread was written by my wife
and partner in Map Kibera.
All the points on this thread are very good points to keep in mind with any
mapping project, but there's no universal rule in my experience.
Don't forget that mappers are
Hi,
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 07:52:49PM -0700, Kate Chapman wrote:
What about in the situations where locals would like to make their own map
but this is not financially feasible? If we are creating truly a free map
of the entire world it is important to figure out how not to just make a
map
Isn't the point of remote mapping the ability to pull a large amount of
people from all parts of life together and map an area of need in a short
period of time? That simply can't be done in area's affected by a disaster
due to the fact they are themselves are recovering from the impact of said
The claim that the maps are only for the benefit of Westerners implies that
non-Western people never travel to or trade with areas beyond their
immediate neighborhoods.
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out
Le 14 juin 2015 à 14:57, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org a écrit :
But this is exactly the criticism we're facing - bluntly put:
Westerners need maps of places so they can conquer them by selling
their products and services.
Yes, if you put the History aside, not admitting the constant
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
Am 14.06.2015 um 17:21 schrieb Kate Chapman:
Further we have additional material in the early simulations that Matt
Amos did that indicate that this is not unexpected given some
assumptions about editor motivation.
This
Am 14.06.2015 um 17:21 schrieb Kate Chapman:
Possibly, but we cite as fact that imports stunt community growth. I
don't think that has ever been proven in a way that cuts across
cultures, geographies or the quality of the data being imported. People
usually point to the TIGER import in the
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:
What about in the situations where locals would like to make their own
map but this is not financially feasible? If we are creating truly a free
map of the entire world it is important to figure out how not to just make
a
Possibly, but we cite as fact that imports stunt community growth. I don't
think that has ever been proven in a way that cuts across cultures,
geographies or the quality of the data being imported. People usually point
to the TIGER import in the US. I don't think we can purely blame an import,
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson j...@betra.is
wrote:
Who said anything about Westerners? Projects like mapping entire Botswana
and Lesotho is not for HOT issues, acute distress. It is for making it
easier for the local economies to grow, to use maps like the Western
We need to encourage local mapping, but large-scale disasters create a need
for immediate maps, which, in some cases, means outside help is needed.
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can
I think little can be said against careful, respectful mapping of base
infrastructure (aka major road and other transportation facilities), as
far as possible with input from the local inhabitants, particularly in
the case of emergencies, by harnessing the combined prowess of OSM mappers.
As had
Am 14.06.2015 um 19:33 schrieb Kate Chapman:
I should point out that none of the above is in any way new, just
conveniently ignored.
Not ignored, I'm just not sure it is solid enough evidence to justify
for or against imports worldwide.
If we can't extrapolate from the
An app developer in Botswana I've been in contact with has made the
first app made in Botswana that uses OSM, Kabby Cab for the
entrepreneurial Kabby system (independent mini buses) in Gaborone and
he's working on expanding it into an app for ordering taxis and more. As
anyone knows getting
El 14/06/2015 3:46 am, Paweł Paprota escribió:
And i think there are a lot of other areas in OSM that represent at
least as efficient (and therefore damaging) means of cultural
imperialism as remote mapping.
Acting as devil's advocate, I have a quick question - are you 100% sure
that you are
While OSM is not a politically motivated and controlled project, some of
what has been discussed needs a fuller discussion. It's the poor areas
of the map that need the most help and those of us with the tools to do
so should ...
On 14/06/15 13:18, Johan C wrote:
I've searched her article for an
On 13 June 2015 15:37:22 GMT+01:00, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
http://groundtruth.in/2015/06/05/osm-mapping-power-to-the-people/
I really liked that article, but to me it doesn't argues *against
remote mapping* as much as it argues *for local mapping*.
I think everybody already
On 15/06/2015 2:29 AM, John Eldredge wrote:
The claim that the maps are only for the benefit of Westerners implies
that non-Western people never travel to or trade with areas beyond
their immediate neighborhoods.
There was a humours suggestion to map animal paths, rejected as not
something
On 14/06/2015, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
Further we have additional material in the early simulations that Matt
Amos did that indicate that this is not unexpected given some
assumptions about editor motivation.
Kate Chapman writes:
Possibly, but we cite as fact that imports stunt community growth. I don't
think that has ever been proven in a way that cuts across cultures,
geographies or the quality of the data being imported. People usually point
to the TIGER import in the US. I don't think we
Some thoughts from a developing country - India. Maps have had a
controversial role to play in the modern history of much of the Indian
subcontinent, as a tool created and controlled by those who came ashore
from the west. OSM has made it possible for the first time in history for
the common
Hi All,
First off, let me say that I’ve really enjoyed this discussion. I admire the
mixture of passion and overall civility on a really difficult topic. I’ve
honestly learned some things reading all your replies.
I have a lot of thoughts about remote mapping vs. on the ground mapping
Hi Russ,
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
Frederik Ramm writes:
I think the tl;dr of both these postings could be: Whenever you give
someone a map by remote mapping, you also take something away from
them.
Western aid has a bad history of mostly
Sometimes I wonder whether remote/armchair mapping has similar effects as
imports to the growth of the local community.
I think we have recognized that imports has a place in osm provided it
follows community principles and guidelines. Maybe its time to discuss
similar principles and guidelines
Hi,
I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no
personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for fun, for
money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea that runs
against the spirit of OSM.
(I'm willing to concede that there are
I think you could extend this to saying we should let people live their own
lives and not allow them access to things such as mobile phones until they
have enough education to design their own. In Canada we have native people
and the debate is always what services should you provide them with and
Hi,
On 06/13/2015 05:00 PM, john whelan wrote:
I think you could extend this to saying we should let people live their
own lives and not allow them access to things such as mobile phones
until they have enough education to design their own.
Or perhaps even break that down to individual
This is a very intersting discussion and something worth talking about.
This should happen more.
I think we should distinguish between remote mapping, or armchair mapping,
and putting 'color' on the map.
Most remote mappers will just trace basic stuff like buildings, roads or
other features that
These critiques seem to be beginning to develop themes explored more fully
and famously by James Scott in _Seeing Like A State_. In it, he explores
the implications of government efforts at systematization, including the
original French cadastre and some German forest management projects.
I'm
On Saturday 13 June 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
[...]
I don't agree with everything written in these postings but they
certainly deserve some wider audience, and that's why I am writing
this here - since neither author is on these lists and I haven't seen
their messages mentioned or quoted
Frederik Ramm writes:
I think the tl;dr of both these postings could be: Whenever you give
someone a map by remote mapping, you also take something away from them.
Western aid has a bad history of mostly aiding westerners. The one
simple trick for avoiding that is to ask the locals How can I
Western aid has a bad history of mostly aiding westerners. The one
simple trick for avoiding that is to ask the locals How can I help?
And if the locals say We need a better map for where we live, then
that addresses your concern.
Unfortunately the world isn't quite so simple. If we look at the
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