Re: [OSM-talk] Software configuration | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Mateusz Konieczny]

11 Apr 2019, 01:14 by yuriastrak...@gmail.com:
> * easy to edit by community
>
I am dubious whatever "anybody canedit any preset stored as wikidata
items" will be considered as benefit
> , track changes, and fix/revert in case of an error
>
All of that is easier with current 
method of keeping them in
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Re: [OSM-talk] Software configuration | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 5:04 PM Rory McCann  wrote:

> In JOSM, people, or groups, can make their own tagging presets. AFAIK iD
> unfortunately doesn't have this feature. If it did, the iD version on
> openstreetmap.org could be configured to something special, people could
> have their personal tagging presets "saved" somehow, maybe one could
> "load other presets from a remote address" via a URL parameter, allowing
> one to "load a preset with a link".


Rory, I am actually hopping data items could become a general preset
storage for all editors. Each preset would be stored as a data item, and
editors would use a script to convert preset into a JSON file, or
eventually use it directly.  This approach has a number of advantages:

* easy to edit by community, track changes, and fix/revert in case of an
error
* easy to translate - one click description editing for every possible
language
* easy to verify / validate / cross-check - there are many ways to query
presets and to run validations on them, so an invalid preset can be quickly
fixed/reverted
* part of wiki - presets can be viewed as part of the regular wiki pages,
e.g. on a Tag:... page
* easy to add pictures and icons - part of wiki, or from commons - just
another property
* easy to categorize/partition presets - just another property to add
preset into a category, or have a whole category tree.
* easy to extend schema - just add more properties to target a new editor
feature - other editors will simply ignore it.
* ties with all other keys / tags / relations / relation roles -- if a
preset requires a tag, it is not a string, it is actually a reference to
that tag, with its own properties.
* easy to build custom UI -- structured data allows developers to have
custom editors for those presets

Obviously this has to be done in a non-disruptive, gradual way, and having
good quality control. I'm still researching on the best way to achieve this.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items
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Re: [OSM-talk] Software configuration | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

iD seems to have this feature via MapRules: 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/5617 


10. apríl 2019 kl. 21:08, skrifaði "Rory McCann" :

> On 07.04.19 14:43, John Whelan wrote:
> 
>> Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so
>> commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap
>> I'll say normals.
>> 
>> Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not
>> recognised in iD only the more general tag house.
> 
> In JOSM, people, or groups, can make their own tagging presets. AFAIK iD
> unfortunately doesn't have this feature. If it did, the iD version on
> openstreetmap.org could be configured to something special, people could
> have their personal tagging presets "saved" somehow, maybe one could
> "load other presets from a remote address" via a URL parameter, allowing
> one to "load a preset with a link". Then each iD user wouldn't be able
> to complain to the iD developers. But that's not possible now.
> 
> For now, the OSM wiki voting isn't binding, the people who make editors
> have a lot of control. I'm sure patches & feature requests would be
> welcome
> 
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[OSM-talk] Software configuration | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Rory McCann]

On 07.04.19 14:43, John Whelan wrote:
Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so 
commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap 
I'll say normals.


Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not 
recognised in iD only the more general tag house.


In JOSM, people, or groups, can make their own tagging presets. AFAIK iD 
unfortunately doesn't have this feature. If it did, the iD version on 
openstreetmap.org could be configured to something special, people could 
have their personal tagging presets "saved" somehow, maybe one could 
"load other presets from a remote address" via a URL parameter, allowing 
one to "load a preset with a link". Then each iD user wouldn't be able 
to complain to the iD developers. But that's not possible now.


For now, the OSM wiki voting isn't binding, the people who make editors 
have a lot of control. I'm sure patches & feature requests would be 
welcome



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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[yves]

The iD editor team has made a tremendous job so far, and it's probably 
because some people working together tightly have come up with good 
ideas, and this is good.
However, when such an idea become controversial, it would be good 
practice  to reach out openly with the wider community and other editors 
developers, and take the time to do so. But in the end, it's up to them. 
I don't see an 'Editor software rules working group' be a big success.


On another side, and when it comes to tagging (because it also comes to 
that), I do understand that somebody wanting to have things done feel 
irritated by the too few people discussing the matter at length on the 
tagging list and the wiki. However, these are  communication channels we 
have, and the people dedicated to it. For a maintainer of iD, to despise 
these channel for advice or discussion is not helping to gain trust in 
the development team, a very good way to make these channels worse, and 
everybody's frustration high.


Yves


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Re: [OSM-talk] Dialects of English | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Excellent point Rory, thx. We can already enter tag description in data
items in many English variants, e.g. Patois or Canadian or even Old English
:), and iD editor will automatically get the right one when showing tag
info. There is now a discussion on how to region-limit tags too (this is
different from "language-limiting" we have now, that needs to go away).

* a 2 min video on how to add descriptions -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items
* amenity=college data item https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4763


On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 5:24 AM Rory McCann  wrote:

>
> A better example might be "college", which has different meanings in
> different dialects of English, or "gallon" or "football"
>
> I don't think there is a solution this, except better localization of
> software. Or we all just switch to Esperanto or Irish or something.
>
> If you want real fun, just talk about "tabling an agenda item" 😈
>
> On 08/04/2019 18:32, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
> > Martin, thanks for explanation, but my point still stands -- in tags, we
> > treat words not at their own meaning, but as IDs that represent some
> > agreed concepts.  The German wiki page has a warning about
> > "evangelical", so it is likely not all German-speaking mappers are aware
> > of the distinction, or know English well enough to know this.  The same
> > applies to highways - "highway" the word has different meaning in
> > different regions, whereas "highway" the OSM tag should have just a
> > single meaning that's clear to every mapper and every consumer.
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 3:50 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
> > mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> >  > On 7. Apr 2019, at 22:23, Yuri Astrakhan  > > wrote:
> >  >
> >  > A good example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers
> > should not use it for "evangelisch" which stands for
> > denomination=protestant. The word may be the same, but we treat
> > "evangelical" as an ID for a specific meaning, rather than reflect
> > local language customs.
> >
> >
> > actually “evangelical” translates in German to “evangelikal”, which
> > doesn’t seem to be very confusing. Someone thinking it means
> > “evangelisch” is likely mapping in a domain s/he isn’t acquainted
> with.
> >
> > Cheers, Martin
> >
> >
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> >
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Dialects of English | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Volker Schmidt]

I don't think there is a solution this, except better localization of
> software. Or we all just switch to Esperanto or Irish or something.
>

Esperanto is a solution, and we use it in OSM, only that OSM's Esperanto is
British English

Volker
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Re: [OSM-talk] Dialects of English | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Yves]

Please note that ID make a pretty good job in localization. I'd say that to 
influence tags meaning, the Transifex tasks, open to any contributors, is a 
more powerful tool than iD code and pressets.
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[OSM-talk] Dialects of English | Re: iD influencing tagging

[Rory McCann]

A better example might be "college", which has different meanings in
different dialects of English, or "gallon" or "football"

I don't think there is a solution this, except better localization of
software. Or we all just switch to Esperanto or Irish or something.

If you want real fun, just talk about "tabling an agenda item" 😈

On 08/04/2019 18:32, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
Martin, thanks for explanation, but my point still stands -- in tags, we 
treat words not at their own meaning, but as IDs that represent some 
agreed concepts.  The German wiki page has a warning about 
"evangelical", so it is likely not all German-speaking mappers are aware 
of the distinction, or know English well enough to know this.  The same 
applies to highways - "highway" the word has different meaning in 
different regions, whereas "highway" the OSM tag should have just a 
single meaning that's clear to every mapper and every consumer.


On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 3:50 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:




sent from a phone

 > On 7. Apr 2019, at 22:23, Yuri Astrakhan mailto:yuriastrak...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > A good example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers
should not use it for "evangelisch" which stands for
denomination=protestant. The word may be the same, but we treat
"evangelical" as an ID for a specific meaning, rather than reflect
local language customs.


actually “evangelical” translates in German to “evangelikal”, which
doesn’t seem to be very confusing. Someone thinking it means
“evangelisch” is likely mapping in a domain s/he isn’t acquainted with.

Cheers, Martin 



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