Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Alan Mackie]

On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 18:00, Justin Tracey via talk 
wrote:

> On 2020-10-05 6:49 a.m., john whelan wrote:
> > I think we underestimate new mappers.  JOSM takes a little more time
> > to set up true enough but once set up new mappers can be quite
> > productive.  I think it is best if you limit them to adding one or two
> > features at a time but for adding buildings nothing beats it with the
> > buildings_tool plugin.
>
>
> For adding lots of buildings quickly, sure, that's definitely what I'd
> recommend, but that's not the most common action newbies will be
> performing in OSM. And yes, you *can* teach new mappers how to use JOSM,
> of course, but IMO the goal should be to make the UI as frictionless as
> possible at getting them to understand how mapping works, not getting
> them to use the most powerful mapping tools as quickly as possible. Or,
> framed another way, I would rather have lots of moderately skilled
> contributors all over the world than (unintentionally) gate-keep into
> highly skilled contributors in a few places.
>
>
> To use a programming analogy (sorry, I realize this is useless to
> non-programmers), yes, you can teach a complete programming newbie C as
> their first language. But if you want them to actually understand the
> important core concepts quickly rather than learning the quirks of the
> architecture, you're probably better off using something simple like
> Python. On a similar note, I use C for my work quite often, but when I
> need to write something simple, I'll default to Python; and while I
> frequently use (and have even made non-trivial upstream code
> contributions to) JOSM, I still default to iD as my go-to editor for
> most quick fixes.
>
As far as learning OSM goes, I think iD's tendency to hide what's going on
isn't helpful. With JOSM you apply a preset and see the equivalent tags
immediately at the side. With iD these tags are hidden below the user
friendly template (often pushing it off the screen). I also find iD's area
and relation handling to be a little misleading as well as it implies that
we have an area type that is distinct from ways and presents relations in a
way that is effectively backwards.

>
>
> >
> > Highways, I think it is iD that offers many choices of tags but do we
> > really need rural highways in Africa to be tagged as unlit?
>
>
> Well, for that particular case, my guess is that tag is just as useful
> there as it is anywhere.
>
>  - Justin
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Justin Tracey via talk]

On 2020-10-05 6:49 a.m., john whelan wrote:
> I think we underestimate new mappers.  JOSM takes a little more time
> to set up true enough but once set up new mappers can be quite
> productive.  I think it is best if you limit them to adding one or two
> features at a time but for adding buildings nothing beats it with the
> buildings_tool plugin.


For adding lots of buildings quickly, sure, that's definitely what I'd
recommend, but that's not the most common action newbies will be
performing in OSM. And yes, you *can* teach new mappers how to use JOSM,
of course, but IMO the goal should be to make the UI as frictionless as
possible at getting them to understand how mapping works, not getting
them to use the most powerful mapping tools as quickly as possible. Or,
framed another way, I would rather have lots of moderately skilled
contributors all over the world than (unintentionally) gate-keep into
highly skilled contributors in a few places.


To use a programming analogy (sorry, I realize this is useless to
non-programmers), yes, you can teach a complete programming newbie C as
their first language. But if you want them to actually understand the
important core concepts quickly rather than learning the quirks of the
architecture, you're probably better off using something simple like
Python. On a similar note, I use C for my work quite often, but when I
need to write something simple, I'll default to Python; and while I
frequently use (and have even made non-trivial upstream code
contributions to) JOSM, I still default to iD as my go-to editor for
most quick fixes.


>
> Highways, I think it is iD that offers many choices of tags but do we
> really need rural highways in Africa to be tagged as unlit?


Well, for that particular case, my guess is that tag is just as useful
there as it is anywhere.

 - Justin




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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Jiri Vlasak]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 08:50:43AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM and 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Guide and 
> https://learnosm.org/en/josm/
> but I am not fully happy about any of them (a bit too much at one for someone 
> new)

I think that keeping https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Guide as "good
introduction to JOSM" makes perfect sense.

Could you, please, help with improving the guide? What discourages you? Would
you mind testing JOSM/Guide on some of your's newbies? The feedback is very
welcome as is the contribution!

Thanks,
jiri

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

5 paź 2020, 12:19 od ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 05/10/2020 08:57, Martin  Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 5. Oct 2020, at 00:58, Michael Booth >>>  
>>> >> OSM newbie unless there was a specific reason or feature required when 
>>> editing.
>>>
>> I would, because they will have to learn from scratch anyway, so why not 
>> starting with the most popular (by numbers of edits), most powerful, most 
>> versatile, closest to the community consensus and longest standing (i.e. 
>> most reliable that it will remain) editor?
>>
>
> Telling potential new contributors that they need to use JOSM to  
> contribute to OSM will have two effects
>
>
Telling them that they must use JOSM
and that they can use JOSM and
that in some cases JOSM is the best are different things.
>
> All tools have their strengths and weaknesses and it makes sense  to use 
> the right tool for the job in each case.  
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[john whelan]

I think we underestimate new mappers.  JOSM takes a little more time to set
up true enough but once set up new mappers can be quite productive.  I
think it is best if you limit them to adding one or two features at a time
but for adding buildings nothing beats it with the buildings_tool plugin.

The number of misshapped, mistagged, untagged buildings in OSM is testament
to the difficulties they have with other editors.

Highways, I think it is iD that offers many choices of tags but do we
really need rural highways in Africa to be tagged as unlit?


Cheerio John

On Mon, Oct 5, 2020, 06:25 Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 05/10/2020 08:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>
> On 5. Oct 2020, at 00:58, Michael Booth  
>  wrote:
> Not sure I'd recommend JOSM for a 100% OSM newbie unless there was a specific 
> reason or feature required when editing.
>
>
>
> I would, because they will have to learn from scratch anyway, so why not 
> starting with the most popular (by numbers of edits), most powerful, most 
> versatile, closest to the community consensus and longest standing (i.e. most 
> reliable that it will remain) editor?
>
> Telling potential new contributors that they need to use JOSM to
> contribute to OSM will have two effects:
>
>1. It'll put lots of people off contributing to OSM at all.
>2. It'll cause lots of errors in OSM where people don't understand
>what they're doing do things by accident.
>
> All tools have their strengths and weaknesses and it makes sense to use
> the right tool for the job in each case.  JOSM is great for some things - I
> regularly use 4 different OSM editors on a regular basis and by some
> measure of "most edits" JOSM may well be "the editor that I use most", but
> I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with the basics in OSM
> at all yet.  People need to find out how "what they see in the real world"
> and "what they see on a map" relate to "what data is actually in OSM" and
> JOSM really isn't good at explaining, or in some cases even representing,
> that.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Andy Townsend]

On 05/10/2020 08:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 5. Oct 2020, at 00:58, Michael Booth  wrote:
Not sure I'd recommend JOSM for a 100% OSM newbie unless there was a specific 
reason or feature required when editing.


I would, because they will have to learn from scratch anyway, so why not 
starting with the most popular (by numbers of edits), most powerful, most 
versatile, closest to the community consensus and longest standing (i.e. most 
reliable that it will remain) editor?


Telling potential new contributors that they need to use JOSM to 
contribute to OSM will have two effects:


1. It'll put lots of people off contributing to OSM at all.
2. It'll cause lots of errors in OSM where people don't understand what
   they're doing do things by accident.

All tools have their strengths and weaknesses and it makes sense to use 
the right tool for the job in each case.  JOSM is great for some things 
- I regularly use 4 different OSM editors on a regular basis and by some 
measure of "most edits" JOSM may well be "the editor that I use most", 
but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with the basics 
in OSM at all yet.  People need to find out how "what they see in the 
real world" and "what they see on a map" relate to "what data is 
actually in OSM" and JOSM really isn't good at explaining, or in some 
cases even representing, that.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. Oct 2020, at 00:58, Michael Booth  wrote:
> Not sure I'd recommend JOSM for a 100% OSM newbie unless there was a specific 
> reason or feature required when editing.


I would, because they will have to learn from scratch anyway, so why not 
starting with the most popular (by numbers of edits), most powerful, most 
versatile, closest to the community consensus and longest standing (i.e. most 
reliable that it will remain) editor?

Most people are not going to learn more than one osm editor, that’s why I would 
recommend they use Josm from the beginning.

It also may depend on the kind of people, their level of technical affinity. 

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Michael Booth]

Not sure I'd recommend JOSM for a 100% OSM newbie unless there was a 
specific reason or feature required when editing.


Relations are fairly well supported in iD - however it doesn't yet 
support adding multiple selections to a relation, parent/child 
relations, or sorting all relation members (though you can drag and drop 
them yourself).


But iD should be sufficient to begin with - for example you could change 
a tag or find gaps in hiking relations using the Relation Analyser or 
Waymarked Trails, and then have them fixed before you've even opened the 
relation in JOSM!


http://ra.osmsurround.org/

https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Mikel Maron via talk]

Might be a touch out of date, but useful guide to JOSM 
https://labs.mapbox.com/mapping/

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron






On Thursday, September 24, 2020, 03:20:01 AM EDT, Maarten Deen 
 wrote: 





On 2020-09-24 08:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM and
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Guide and
> https://learnosm.org/en/josm/
> 
> but I am not fully happy about any of them (a bit too much at one for
> someone new)
> 
> Why not iD: they want to edit and fix hiking relations, what AFAIK is
> not well supported in iD

Well, I only know the very basics in iD (and also Potlatch2). I even 
have problems putting a node because it always wants to continue to a 
way and I don't know how to stop this (believe in Potlatch2).
So every editor has a learning curve, even the ones that are supposed to 
be the easy ones like iD or Potlatch2. Because I've been using JOSM for 
years, I know how to use most if not all of the functions and I shun 
away from iD or Potlatch2 just because I've never familiarized myself 
with them (I don't see the need because they lack the features of JOSM).

I don't see what is "much" about 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Guide. 2 steps to start the 
program (if you have Java installed) and the basic functions are 
explained step by step.
Relations are always a more advanced topic, but I can't imagine that 
with a few days of fiddling around you don't get the hang of it.

Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-09-24 08:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM and

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Guide and
https://learnosm.org/en/josm/

but I am not fully happy about any of them (a bit too much at one for
someone new)

Why not iD: they want to edit and fix hiking relations, what AFAIK is
not well supported in iD


Well, I only know the very basics in iD (and also Potlatch2). I even 
have problems putting a node because it always wants to continue to a 
way and I don't know how to stop this (believe in Potlatch2).
So every editor has a learning curve, even the ones that are supposed to 
be the easy ones like iD or Potlatch2. Because I've been using JOSM for 
years, I know how to use most if not all of the functions and I shun 
away from iD or Potlatch2 just because I've never familiarized myself 
with them (I don't see the need because they lack the features of JOSM).


I don't see what is "much" about 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Guide. 2 steps to start the 
program (if you have Java installed) and the basic functions are 
explained step by step.
Relations are always a more advanced topic, but I can't imagine that 
with a few days of fiddling around you don't get the hang of it.


Regards,
Maarten

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[OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM and 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Guide and https://learnosm.org/en/josm/
but I am not fully happy about any of them (a bit too much at one for someone 
new)

Why not iD: they want to edit and fix hiking relations, what AFAIK is not well 
supported in iD
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