Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
David Earl wrote: In principle it ought to be possible to determine the country an object is in, even though it is quite hard at present. I think a lot of things would benefit from this ability: nationally-styled rendering rules, deciding which way roundabouts go, name renderings, validation, improved searching context etc. David I think it is not as easy as it looks. Some countries (Slovenia, for example) still do not have the whole border drawn in OSM (lack of free data), so you cannot use this to determine what belongs to what country - never mind the purely technical difficulties of doing so. And anyway, even this does not help for multilingual countries like Belgium or Spain. It is probably more logical to use multilingual place names which should have an ISO language ID, like name:ca so that we can match them with appropriate language mappings like Name finder:Abbreviations. But this multilingual tagging is not used universally in the OSM community. There is also an is_in tag, but again, it's not widely used (at least to my knowledge, I could be wrong). BTW: it would be good to add ISO language IDs to the Name finder:Abbreviations page so that the mappings can be computer-matched more easily. Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
On 27/07/2008 11:00, Igor Brejc wrote: David Earl wrote: In principle it ought to be possible to determine the country an object is in, even though it is quite hard at present. I think a lot of things would benefit from this ability: nationally-styled rendering rules, deciding which way roundabouts go, name renderings, validation, improved searching context etc. David I think it is not as easy as it looks. Some countries (Slovenia, for example) still do not have the whole border drawn in OSM (lack of free data), so you cannot use this to determine what belongs to what country - never mind the purely technical difficulties of doing so. Well, depends on the application. And like all our applications, they fail with incomplete data, but that will be rectified over time. Even an approximate boundary will catch most of the area of a country. And anyway, even this does not help for multilingual countries like Belgium or Spain. Well, depends on the application - choosing a national rendering would be OK. Bilingual countries should be using name:lang widely as you say below, and it may be that the country it is in could define the default language for the unadorned name= tag (so are places in Catalunya tagged in Spanish by default, with name:ca for Catalan; if not, how does one know what language name= refers to). It is probably more logical to use multilingual place names which should have an ISO language ID, like name:ca so that we can match them with appropriate language mappings like Name finder:Abbreviations. But this multilingual tagging is not used universally in the OSM community. name:lang does seem to be quite widely used. What you're suggesting would be quite a good idea except that I don't have any way of knowing what the language is of the simple name= - I can deal with the alternates, but not the principal name. And with millions of names now in there, these ain't going to get manually qualified (and that would have to be by a new tag or duplication because of the way name is used now for rendering), so unfortunately it is not likely to be practical. There is also an is_in tag, but again, it's not widely used (at least to my knowledge, I could be wrong). It's widely used in the UK. It would be better IMO if it was categorised (is_in:country=Engl;and, is_in:county=Cambridgeshire for example) or had some hierarchical structure (but that's difficult to maintain), but as it is so ingrained, again it isn't likely to change any time soon. BTW: it would be good to add ISO language IDs to the Name finder:Abbreviations page so that the mappings can be computer-matched more easily. Feel free. I'm not parsing this list automatically anywhere at present, I'm just using it as a manual reference for a table in the name finder. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Collapsed names
in the italian mailing list we are facing new (and some old) users arguing should be better to enter in the name tag the collapsed form of the name. I'm trying to persuade this people this is the wrong way 'cause don't exist any way to explode names collapsed. I'm proposing to add 2 extension to the name tag to mark which part of the name could be collapsed or hidden in the same moment you could give a priority e.g. exploded form: Viale don Luigi Sturzo first: V.le don Luigi Sturzo 2nd: V.le Luigi Sturzo 3rd: V.le L. Sturzo so name=Viale don Luigi Sturzo name:collapsable=1;3 name=hide=2 so... you are adding tips usefull to renderes about which part of the name collapse or hide but it's not a mandatory collapsation If you are the coder of a renderer you can chose to hide befor collapse or collapse before hide.. Let me know it make sense or not.. Edoardo -- Edoardo Marascalchi ICT Consultant Tel +39.347.008.00.02 website: http://www.edoardomarascalchi.it skype: My status skype:asca_edom?call ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
On 25/07/2008 10:56, Edoardo Marascalchi wrote: in the italian mailing list we are facing new (and some old) users arguing should be better to enter in the name tag the collapsed form of the name. I'm trying to persuade this people this is the wrong way 'cause don't exist any way to explode names collapsed. I'm proposing to add 2 extension to the name tag to mark which part of the name could be collapsed or hidden in the same moment you could give a priority e.g. exploded form: Viale don Luigi Sturzo first: V.le don Luigi Sturzo 2nd: V.le Luigi Sturzo 3rd: V.le L. Sturzo so name=Viale don Luigi Sturzo name:collapsable=1;3 name=hide=2 so... you are adding tips usefull to renderes about which part of the name collapse or hide but it's not a mandatory collapsation If you are the coder of a renderer you can chose to hide befor collapse or collapse before hide.. Let me know it make sense or not.. Edoardo I'm collecting a list of contractions and abbreviations, at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Name_finder:Abbreviations If you can add a section for Italian, that would be great. In due course, these will be used in the name finder so that when someone searches for e.g. V.le Luigi Sturzo they will find Viale don Luigi Sturzo even though it isn't spelled like that anywhere in the tags. This already works for lots of contractions in English, American(!), German, French and a few others, but there's no Italian input so far. If this list were available as XML or some such, I guess renderers could use it to shorten the names if necessary to fit on the map or simply for stylistic reasons. I think manually adding variations would then largely be unnecessary. Where there is a radically different form (let's say hypothetically Viale don Luigi Sturzo could also be expressed as Plaza Sturzo, so it's not really a contraction), you can already use alt_name=Plaza Sturzo and name finder will pick it up. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
EdoM, I'm proposing to add 2 extension to the name tag to mark which part of the name could be collapsed or hidden in the same moment you could give a priority Your idea of referecing parts of the name tag with numbers is error- prone because (a) people will not always agree on how names are split in parts (is Baah blaah-blah blah a three-part name or a four-part name?), and (b) people will change the name and forget to change the extra attributes because they're not clear about what they mean. If you want to have shortened names in the database, then I would put them in there explicitly, like so: name=Viale don Luigi Sturzo name_short_1=V.le don Luigi Storzo name_short_2=V.le Luigi Sturzo name_short_3=V.le L.Sturzo But generally I believe the renderer should just have proper rules about shortening and use them - so you would only employ above scheme for exceptions that the renderer cannot derive automatically. In my eyes it would be a great idea to develop some not-too-complex XML document where such rules can be formalized. We could then have our renderers read that document and use it, and host it on the Wiki so everyone can put in their collapsation rules for their local language. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
Perhaps this would work: name=Viale don Luigi Sturzo short_name=V.le don Luigi Sturzo very_short_name=V.le L. Sturzo If short_name and very_short_name are present then use them, otherwise the renderers can use whatever automated algorithm they like. This would handle with all the corner cases that will never be fully abbreviated automatically. For example: name='s-Hertogenbosch short_name=Den Bosch 80n On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Edoardo Marascalchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in the italian mailing list we are facing new (and some old) users arguing should be better to enter in the name tag the collapsed form of the name. I'm trying to persuade this people this is the wrong way 'cause don't exist any way to explode names collapsed. I'm proposing to add 2 extension to the name tag to mark which part of the name could be collapsed or hidden in the same moment you could give a priority e.g. exploded form: Viale don Luigi Sturzo first: V.le don Luigi Sturzo 2nd: V.le Luigi Sturzo 3rd: V.le L. Sturzo so name=Viale don Luigi Sturzo name:collapsable=1;3 name=hide=2 so... you are adding tips usefull to renderes about which part of the name collapse or hide but it's not a mandatory collapsation If you are the coder of a renderer you can chose to hide befor collapse or collapse before hide.. Let me know it make sense or not.. Edoardo -- Edoardo Marascalchi ICT Consultant Tel +39.347.008.00.02 website: http://www.edoardomarascalchi.it skype: My status skype:asca_edom?call ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
On 25/07/2008 11:11, Frederik Ramm wrote: In my eyes it would be a great idea to develop some not-too-complex XML document where such rules can be formalized. We could then have our renderers read that document and use it, and host it on the Wiki so everyone can put in their collapsation rules for their local language. GMTA It would be nice if an XML file were easily editable and could be displayed nicely in the wiki... funny, I seem to have deja vu here re Map Features. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
Frederik Ramm wrote: If you want to have shortened names in the database, then I would put them in there explicitly, like so: name=Viale don Luigi Sturzo name_short_1=V.le don Luigi Storzo name_short_2=V.le Luigi Sturzo name_short_3=V.le L.Sturzo But generally I believe the renderer should just have proper rules about shortening and use them - so you would only employ above scheme for exceptions that the renderer cannot derive automatically. Not sure whether you can find an algorithm that actually manages to find the correct short versions for all possible languages and places. You can't just shorten, say, Viale to V.le on a general basis as it may appear as a main part of a name. The shortening is only possibly if (a) you are in Italy or the Italian part of Switzerland and (b) it appears as the first word. It gets even trickier, if you want to shorten or even leave out first or middle names like Luigi in the above example. Is the first of two names a first name or rather the first part of a double name? An alternative approach would be some sort of name expression. Something like name_expr=(Viale|V.le) [don] [(Luigi|L[.])] Sturzo This also covers odd cases like my own street which is either a Via or a Viale, depending on whom you ask. Instead of having lots of alternative or shorter names, it becomes simply name_expre=(Via|Viale) [Battista] Foletti (I haven't seen viale shortened to V.le just yet). The drawback is that these expressions tend to get out of hand and that you will have to escape brackets, parentheses and vertical bars. But if the parens are replaced by braces, this should be reasonably safe. And I don't think, this needs anything more complex than just alternatives and optionality. If a canonical name exists, it can go into the name tag just like today. Regards, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
On 25/07/2008 22:11, Martin Hoffmann wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: If you want to have shortened names in the database, then I would put them in there explicitly, like so: name=Viale don Luigi Sturzo name_short_1=V.le don Luigi Storzo name_short_2=V.le Luigi Sturzo name_short_3=V.le L.Sturzo But generally I believe the renderer should just have proper rules about shortening and use them - so you would only employ above scheme for exceptions that the renderer cannot derive automatically. Not sure whether you can find an algorithm that actually manages to find the correct short versions for all possible languages and places. You can't just shorten, say, Viale to V.le on a general basis as it may appear as a main part of a name. The shortening is only possibly if (a) you are in Italy or the Italian part of Switzerland and (b) it appears as the first word. It gets even trickier, if you want to shorten or even leave out first or middle names like Luigi in the above example. Is the first of two names a first name or rather the first part of a double name? [snip] There's two separate cases (1) recognizing that variations are equivalent so that searching works. I think I've demonstrated that that can work pretty well, without needing to know the language - because 9a) it doesn't matter if you get the odd extra hit on occasion, (bn) searches can be context sensitive, and (c) you don't get to see and people don't search for the silly variations that the database sometimes holds because of different languages. (2) Drawing shorter variants when rendering. You only really need one variation there, probably the shortest one. In principle it ought to be possible to determine the country an object is in, even though it is quite hard at present. I think a lot of things would benefit from this ability: nationally-styled rendering rules, deciding which way roundabouts go, name renderings, validation, improved searching context etc. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collapsed names
David Earl wrote: There's two separate cases (1) recognizing that variations are equivalent so that searching works. I think I've demonstrated that that can work pretty well, without needing to know the language - because 9a) it doesn't matter if you get the odd extra hit on occasion, (bn) searches can be context sensitive, and (c) you don't get to see and people don't search for the silly variations that the database sometimes holds because of different languages. True. In this context, being overly helpful is a good thing. You might also want to look for variations of the name, say, if someone types Holland Road you may also look for Holland Street if no result can be found for the former. (2) Drawing shorter variants when rendering. You only really need one variation there, probably the shortest one. Not sure I agree here. You want to put as much of the name into the rendered map as space allows. Keeping the first names of people or at least only shortening them to an initial may be a good thing because they appear up front. From a name like Serafino Balestra a foreigner wouldn't necessarly guess that this refers to a person and Serafino can be dropped. In principle it ought to be possible to determine the country an object is in, even though it is quite hard at present. I think a lot of things would benefit from this ability: nationally-styled rendering rules, deciding which way roundabouts go, name renderings, validation, improved searching context etc. Definitely. Regards, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
