Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
As I read your proposal, it sounds like you have a solution but haven't defined the problem. If you could focus on the problem and describe exactly what is wrong with the current arrangement, and what will happen if we do nothing, that might help. Otherwise I can not see the merits of your proposal. From what I've read for the feedback you've received, you haven't convinced anyone that there is a problem. Best, Clifford -- @osm_washington www.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 21:16, john whelan wrote: > > And different features really are called difference things in different > countries. +1, moreover, the „same“ features are different in different countries and cultures, and it is part of our work to define when we consider them still the same and where they start to be so different that another tag is required. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 21:04, pangoSE wrote: > > E.g. permanent unique ids, talk pages if we want that for every osmid, SPARQL > support, standardization benefits "riding the current ride in open data" somehow you can have this already through the integration of wikidata: just add a wikidata reference to an object and you could decide to ignore all OpenStreetMap tags and rely only on wikidata (although it would not be advisable IMHO, looking at where wikidata is currently, you would loose lots of relevant information). Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
"riding the current ride in open data" - I am confused what is the meaning of that "scripting support for botmakers" - as a bot operator and a bot author I am confused what is supposed to be missing "support for references and linking interactively to other data sources" - we have that, see wikidata tag for example "talk pages if we want that for every osmid" - changeset comments and notes seem sufficient "SPARQL support" - we have already some wikidata/OSM query engine and overpass turbo And frankly Overpass is much nicer that SPARQL (this may be just me). "Bots are very useful" - maybe, but it is 100% possible to have bots already so I am confused why it is mentioned "possibility we don't have today regarding integration with e.g. wikidata." - given what kind of ideas appear thanks to current wikidata integration (like deprecating name tag) I prefer reducing wikidata integration rather than deepening it (or, the best solution - keep it as is) Aug 9, 2020, 21:01 by pang...@riseup.net: > Could you reply with your arguments in favor of the current one2one tag model > system in the other thread where I listed the benefits as I see them? > > E.g. permanent unique ids, talk pages if we want that for every osmid, SPARQL > support, standardization benefits "riding the current ride in open data", > scripting support for botmakers, and above all support for references and > linking interactively to other data sources. > Bots are very useful e.g. to notify an editor of a possible tagging mistake > or checking urls of references. Martin could also reference an image in > Wikimedia commons directly on the statement it relates to. > > Unique Qids for every osm object that is decoupled from the underlying osmid > gives some possibility we don't have today regarding integration with e.g. > wikidata. > > Cheers > > Mateusz Konieczny via talk skrev: (9 augusti 2020 > 20:14:03 CEST) > >> It still fails to provide even a single benefit over the current situation. >> >> Aug 9, 2020, 20:11 by pang...@riseup.net: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Originalmeddelande >>> Från: pangoSE >>> Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST >>> Till: talk@openstreetmap.org >>> Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM >>> >>> This is another good reason to abandon this suggestion in favor of our own >>> wikibase instance. >>> >>> Philip Barnes skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:12:21 CEST) >>> >On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote: >>> > Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, > does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the > editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it > offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn > off to new contributors on the steep learning curve(which is already > pretty high) to contributing to osm. > This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a > post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag. > >>> >This leads me to a fairly fundamental question, what if a mapper does >>> >not want to be associated with wikidata and refuses to sign up? >>> >Phil (trigpoint) >>> >>> -- >>> Skickat från min Android-enhet med k9. >>> >>> ___ >>> talk mailing list >>> talk@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>> >> >> ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
I honestly can't see any benefit. Splitting the data into two places adds the danger of it getting out of sync. Standard naming conventions would be nice but defining the standard name is practically impossible. Compare taginfo to the map features wiki page. One problem with map features is what is written is often one person's idea of what the standard name should be. And different features really are called difference things in different countries. It can be difficult to stretch a "standard" name to cover many things. For example in Canada many highways have wide shoulders to dump snow on in winter. In summer they are often used by cyclists but they aren't cycle lanes by any stretch of imagination even though some are paved. Cheerio John On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 15:04 pangoSE wrote: > Could you reply with your arguments in favor of the current one2one tag > model system in the other thread where I listed the benefits as I see them? > > E.g. permanent unique ids, talk pages if we want that for every osmid, > SPARQL support, standardization benefits "riding the current ride in open > data", scripting support for botmakers, and above all support for > references and linking interactively to other data sources. > Bots are very useful e.g. to notify an editor of a possible tagging > mistake or checking urls of references. Martin could also reference an > image in Wikimedia commons directly on the statement it relates to. > > Unique Qids for every osm object that is decoupled from the underlying > osmid gives some possibility we don't have today regarding integration with > e.g. wikidata. > > Cheers > > Mateusz Konieczny via talk skrev: (9 augusti > 2020 20:14:03 CEST) >> >> It still fails to provide even a single benefit over the current >> situation. >> >> Aug 9, 2020, 20:11 by pang...@riseup.net: >> >> >> >> >> Originalmeddelande >> Från: pangoSE >> Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST >> Till: talk@openstreetmap.org >> Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM >> >> This is another good reason to abandon this suggestion in favor of our >> own wikibase instance. >> >> Philip Barnes skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:12:21 >> CEST) >> >On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote: >> >> Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, >> does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the >> editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it >> offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn >> off to new contributors on the steep learning curve(which is already >> pretty high) to contributing to osm. >> This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a >> post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag. >> >> >This leads me to a fairly fundamental question, what if a mapper does >> >not want to be associated with wikidata and refuses to sign up? >> >Phil (trigpoint) >> >> -- >> Skickat från min Android-enhet med k9. >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> >> >> ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
Could you reply with your arguments in favor of the current one2one tag model system in the other thread where I listed the benefits as I see them? E.g. permanent unique ids, talk pages if we want that for every osmid, SPARQL support, standardization benefits "riding the current ride in open data", scripting support for botmakers, and above all support for references and linking interactively to other data sources. Bots are very useful e.g. to notify an editor of a possible tagging mistake or checking urls of references. Martin could also reference an image in Wikimedia commons directly on the statement it relates to. Unique Qids for every osm object that is decoupled from the underlying osmid gives some possibility we don't have today regarding integration with e.g. wikidata. Cheers Mateusz Konieczny via talk skrev: (9 augusti 2020 20:14:03 CEST) >It still fails to provide even a single benefit over the current >situation. > >Aug 9, 2020, 20:11 by pang...@riseup.net: > >> >> >> >> Originalmeddelande >> Från: pangoSE >> Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST >> Till: talk@openstreetmap.org >> Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM >> >> This is another good reason to abandon this suggestion in favor of >our own wikibase instance. >> >> Philip Barnes skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:12:21 >CEST) >> >On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote: >> Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new >item/object, does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn off to new contributors on the steep learning curve(which is >already pretty high) to contributing to osm. This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag. >> >This leads me to a fairly fundamental question, what if a mapper >does >> >not want to be associated with wikidata and refuses to sign up? >> >Phil (trigpoint) >> >> -- >> Skickat från min Android-enhet med k9. >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
It still fails to provide even a single benefit over the current situation. Aug 9, 2020, 20:11 by pang...@riseup.net: > > > > Originalmeddelande > Från: pangoSE > Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST > Till: talk@openstreetmap.org > Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM > > This is another good reason to abandon this suggestion in favor of our own > wikibase instance. > > Philip Barnes skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:12:21 CEST) > >On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote: > >>> Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, >>> does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the >>> editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it >>> offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn >>> off to new contributors on the steep learning curve(which is already >>> pretty high) to contributing to osm. >>> This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a >>> post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag. >>> > >This leads me to a fairly fundamental question, what if a mapper does > >not want to be associated with wikidata and refuses to sign up? > >Phil (trigpoint) > > -- > Skickat från min Android-enhet med k9. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
Originalmeddelande Från: pangoSE Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST Till: talk@openstreetmap.org Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM This is another good reason to abandon this suggestion in favor of our own wikibase instance. Philip Barnes skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:12:21 CEST) >On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote: >> Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, >> does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the >> editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it >> offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn >> off to new contributors on the steep learning curve(which is already >> pretty high) to contributing to osm. >> This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a >> post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag. >> > >This leads me to a fairly fundamental question, what if a mapper does >not want to be associated with wikidata and refuses to sign up? >Phil (trigpoint) -- Skickat från min Android-enhet med k9. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
This was meant for the list. Originalmeddelande Från: pangoSE Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 11:09:08 CEST Till: Mateusz Konieczny Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM Hi Thanks for the response. Mateusz Konieczny via talk skrev: (9 augusti 2020 10:42:21 CEST) >Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by pang...@riseup.net: > >> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating >names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. >> >Absolutely no. > >tagging name tag is a fundamental part of OSM tag, >offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not >happen I disagree. Redundancy is a problem waiting to be solved. > >https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655 contains several misleading, >wrong, mistaken >and problematic claims, statements and implications but I have no time >to process in detail >as the entire idea is fundamentally bad, mistaken, problematic, broken, >not workable, >not acceptable, not going to happen and wrong. I disagree. The current handling of names in osm is redundant in many cases and badly broken when it comes to references. > >Some samples: > >"there is no such thing as an international name. Names are part of a >language whih is part of a culture. They are not GIS objects and the >osm datamodel does not handle this complexity well at all." > >Are you aware that we have other tags beyond name tag? Yes > >loc_name, name:pl and many others? Yes. This is not a blocker. For loc_name and others a new wikidata property can be created. > >"No more name vandalism in osm. We export the name handling to >wikidata which has a much better system for handling vandalism." > >Because vandalism in third-party service is superior? >Are you seriously claiming that Wikidata has less trouble with >vandalism >and deals with it better? Yes. The new york defacement could most probably have been avoided wih this approach. I have no statistics to back up this claim though. If anyone have statistics I would love to read them. Cheers___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
