Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Apr 2018, at 21:55, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> It would seem that a simple way to make the tagging in the first case
> less ambivalent would be to add a tag segregated=yes/no (so a unisex=yes
> segregated=yes facility would only have gender specific rooms, with
> segregated=no you could expect at least one unisex room).


I would make this gender_segregated because segregated toilets could also be 
seen as having stalls or not.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Simon Poole]

Somehow I don't see anything on the wiki page that supports this lengthy
thread.

The issue may be that there are (at least) two ways to map a toilet
facility:

- rough, one node or area for the whole thing, indicating that unisex,
female and male apply to the options available within, making it
diffifult to determine what is exactly implied,

- detailed: a node, entrance or room per toilet "room", for which the
three tags make perfect sense.

It would seem that a simple way to make the tagging in the first case
less ambivalent would be to add a tag segregated=yes/no (so a unisex=yes
segregated=yes facility would only have gender specific rooms, with
segregated=no you could expect at least one unisex room).

Simon

Am 26.04.2018 um 09:15 schrieb Rory McCann:
> On 26/04/18 01:00, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:
>> If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
>> female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
>> Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
>> confusion with that existing data.
>
> That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
> using this data/tags?
>
> If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
> If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
> using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
> says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 
>
> I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Mikel Maron]

> That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
using this data/tags?
>
> If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 
>
> I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.

Proud to say, my alma mater University of California, Santa Cruz, has had 
various versions of its campus map based on OSM, and they highlight gender 
neutral bathrooms. "unisex=yes" is the tag used 
there.https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1951346808

The application of the tag is not consistent across the campus, so is a prime 
location to engage for a mapping effort.
-Mikel

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Thursday, April 26, 2018, 3:18:45 AM EDT, Rory McCann 
 wrote:  
 
 On 26/04/18 01:00, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:
> If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
> female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
> Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
> confusion with that existing data.

That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
using this data/tags?

If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 

I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Rory McCann]

On 26/04/18 01:00, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:

If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
confusion with that existing data.


That's one of my original questions. What (if any) data consumers are
using this data/tags?

If some popular site/app was using it to display a map that's one thing.
If no-one is using the data, and many data contributors (mappers) are
using "unisex=yes" as gender neutral, then it doesn't matter if the wiki
says "it's the same as gender segregated"! 

I haven't found any sites/apps/projects using this data/tags.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Apr 2018, at 00:21, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> 
> This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
> definition from?
> 
> I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.


admittedly from Rory who wrote in his first message: “The wiki
page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". “

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Jo]

What I see most often is a room with toilets for men, another room with
toilets for women and a toilet for people with disabilities, usually a
somewhat higher pot in a relatively big room with a larger door. The last
one is gender neutral, of course. I don't think anyone maps that
explicitly, as it goes without saying.

If there is only 1 toilet, wouldn't it always be gender neutral? Are we
soon going to find 4 different toilet doors in buildings, male, female,
disabled and "something else"?

Jo

2018-04-26 1:00 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Alvarez :

> 2018-04-25 19:21 GMT-03:00 Tobias Knerr :
> > On 25.04.2018 15:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >> Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes
> >
> > This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
> > definition from?
> >
> > I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.
> > And at least on the Key:unisex and Tag:amenity=toilet wiki pages, I see
> > nothing to contradict that.
> >
> > The former page mentions that the tag implies male=yes and female=yes,
> > but "implies" should not be confused with "is equivalent to".
>
> If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
> female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
> Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
> confusion with that existing data.
>
> --
> Nicolás
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Nicolás Alvarez]

2018-04-25 19:21 GMT-03:00 Tobias Knerr :
> On 25.04.2018 15:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes
>
> This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
> definition from?
>
> I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.
> And at least on the Key:unisex and Tag:amenity=toilet wiki pages, I see
> nothing to contradict that.
>
> The former page mentions that the tag implies male=yes and female=yes,
> but "implies" should not be confused with "is equivalent to".

If most existing data is using unisex to mean "there are both male and
female toilets", then it doesn't matter one bit what the wiki says.
Reusing the tag to mean "there are gender-neutral toilets" will cause
confusion with that existing data.

-- 
Nicolás

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 25.04.2018 15:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes

This may be a stupid question, but where are you all getting this
definition from?

I assumed the key already had the meaning that Rory is suggesting here.
And at least on the Key:unisex and Tag:amenity=toilet wiki pages, I see
nothing to contradict that.

The former page mentions that the tag implies male=yes and female=yes,
but "implies" should not be confused with "is equivalent to".

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Apr 2018, at 09:35, Rory McCann  wrote:
> 
> My proposal improves the meaning (IMO). A "unisex hairdresser" is like a 
> "unisex toilet": all people, regardless of gender, facilitated in the same 
> mixed place. Not many unisex hairdressers are gender segregated, with males 
> in one room, and women in another! My proposal is that "unisex=yes" always 
> means "all genders, and not segregated"


I don’t think we should load more meaning into a tag after it is out in the 
wild. Unisex=yes is defined as a shortcut for male=yes + female=yes, and while 
I would have no problem extending this to people which feel both, or the 
opposite than what their body biologically seems to say, I think it would not 
be logical to include people which are neither, nor would it be OK to add 
implicated meaning about segregation to the definition. For me it would be ok 
to extend the unisex definition to include also people which aren’t male or 
female, but it doesn’t work to make it imply segregated_genders=yes.
A hair stylist can have 2 rooms, one for women and one for men, and it would be 
ok to tag it as unisex=yes. Segregation is a different property and should be 
mapped separately.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Rory McCann]

My proposal improves the meaning (IMO). A "unisex hairdresser" is like a 
"unisex toilet": all people, regardless of gender, facilitated in the 
same mixed place. Not many unisex hairdressers are gender segregated, 
with males in one room, and women in another! My proposal is that 
"unisex=yes" always means "all genders, and not segregated"


On 25/04/18 04:58, Marc Gemis wrote:
FYI The unisex tag is also used as a shorthand for female=yes,  male=yes 
on shop=hairdresser [1] . Giving it another meaning on toilets might 
cause extra confusion.



regards

m

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=hairdresser

Op di 24 apr. 2018 18:27 schreef Rory McCann >:


Hi all,

Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
segregated into separate male & female facilities.

Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
people to know where they are.

But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.

If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
think gender segregated. Big difference.

I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
"gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
which is "gender segregated".

Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
things.

A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)

Rory

P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
[2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
[3]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Marc Gemis]

FYI The unisex tag is also used as a shorthand for female=yes,  male=yes on
shop=hairdresser [1] . Giving it another meaning on toilets might cause
extra confusion.


regards

m

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=hairdresser

Op di 24 apr. 2018 18:27 schreef Rory McCann :

> Hi all,
>
> Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
> gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
> looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
> meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
> segregated into separate male & female facilities.
>
> Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
> larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
> conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
> their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
> to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
> making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
> a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
> people to know where they are.
>
> But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
> page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
> JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
> iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
> it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.
>
> If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
> neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
> think gender segregated. Big difference.
>
> I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
> "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
> which is "gender segregated".
>
> Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
> by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
> things.
>
> A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
> some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)
>
> Rory
>
> P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
> which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
> male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
> [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
> [3]
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2
>
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