Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal languages

[Ian Sergeant]

Suburbs boundaries are set by an authority.  They are verifiable - even if
not by ground truth.  They are accurately measurable and surveyable.  This
is the nature of the land system that we have worked within for centuries,
and which OSM reflects.  So they fit right in.

It's possible that Aboriginal lands are not so precisely defined.  There
may not be definite authority.

Rather than being "criminal" to not include them.  It just might mean it's
not the best database structure to model this data.  It even might be
presumptuous of us to assume that this model of mapping is even appropriate
to map this data.

Of course, if there is a usable, measurable form of this data, then sure,
lets do it.  I'm simply saying that there are many items that don't
naturally fall within OSM data for a number of reasons.

Ian.


On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 at 10:42, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 at 08:21, Ian Sergeant  wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>> I don't see that mapping Nations is an option, I see it as almost
>>> criminal that we don't already.
>>>
>>
>> Surely the essential question to be asked here, is whether these
>> boundaries fit into the OSM model, which is largely inspired by the
>> ordinance survey, where every boundary can be placed as a surveyable marker.
>>
>> So, while they deserve attention and focus, if they can't be verified and
>> measured, then perhaps OSM isn't the right tool.
>>
>
> Suburb boundaries usually don't have anything physical on the ground to
> survey, but we still include them where they actually exist and are a
> concept that is recognised by people.
>
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Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal languages

[David Wales]

I certainly think there is scope within OSM for these indigenous
boundaries and names to be mapped.
However, as has been brought up earlier in this discussion, I don't know
if there is much authoritative data under a compatible license.

In this case, I would suggest making contact with your local indigenous
groups and teaching them how to use OSM.
This might even be a case where OSM can create some spatial data which
is not available anywhere else, based on direct indigenous knowledge.

Regards,
David Wales

On 2/6/20 10:41 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 at 08:21, Ian Sergeant  > wrote:
>
>
>
> I don't see that mapping Nations is an option, I see it as
> almost criminal that we don't already.
>
>
> Surely the essential question to be asked here, is whether these
> boundaries fit into the OSM model, which is largely inspired by
> the ordinance survey, where every boundary can be placed as a
> surveyable marker.
>
> So, while they deserve attention and focus, if they can't be
> verified and measured, then perhaps OSM isn't the right tool.
>
>
> Suburb boundaries usually don't have anything physical on the ground
> to survey, but we still include them where they actually exist and are
> a concept that is recognised by people.
>
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au



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Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal languages

[Andrew Harvey]

On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 at 08:21, Ian Sergeant  wrote:

>
>>
>> I don't see that mapping Nations is an option, I see it as almost
>> criminal that we don't already.
>>
>
> Surely the essential question to be asked here, is whether these
> boundaries fit into the OSM model, which is largely inspired by the
> ordinance survey, where every boundary can be placed as a surveyable marker.
>
> So, while they deserve attention and focus, if they can't be verified and
> measured, then perhaps OSM isn't the right tool.
>

Suburb boundaries usually don't have anything physical on the ground to
survey, but we still include them where they actually exist and are a
concept that is recognised by people.
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Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal languages

[Ian Sergeant]

>
>
>
> I don't see that mapping Nations is an option, I see it as almost criminal
> that we don't already.
>

Surely the essential question to be asked here, is whether these boundaries
fit into the OSM model, which is largely inspired by the ordinance survey,
where every boundary can be placed as a surveyable marker.

So, while they deserve attention and focus, if they can't be verified and
measured, then perhaps OSM isn't the right tool.

Ian.
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Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal languages

[Ewen Hill]

Hi Graham and Ben,
   Thanks for bringing up the topic and expect some interesting debates.

*Naming places and natural elements*
  There is a thought by some that people arriving post 1769 have stolen
everything from the First Nations, and the only thing left they have is
their language. Now we want to use and distribute this without any
consideration. This is actually covered by heritage legislation to some
extent from what I have been told.

Others see using and understanding some of the words in these languages as
assisting in the further understanding of 80,000 years of culture, caring
and understanding for the environment.

I see several layers of availability. Where a town, or natural element uses
a local language and it is in common usage, then we should be using the
name and local name e.g. name:ntj or the generic name:aus along with the
standard name. You can see what has been mapped in most original languages
at  http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/UAl so far.

Where a name is not in common use then we could consider talking to the
local Registered Aboriginal Party (RAP) which are the authority of the
area. Some states may have a different name for a RAP and some areas may
not have a nominated RAP. Much like the waiver we need for other databases,
perhaps we need to have written approval in a standard pro-forma. This
leads us to areas

*Areas*
A great place to start seeing what is already available is at
https://www.spatialsource.com.au/gis-data/4-maps-uncovering-aboriginal-history-culture


Unfortunately we don't have a clear definition of the boundaries and some
are in significant dispute. Some of these are areas are based on the
excellent work of Norman Tindale and his map of 1940
 although this is open to
contention. Tindale did most of his recording at outstations and so is not
an exact match for territory. There are also some issues about his
languages and if they were just minor dialects rather than an entire
different family culture. However what Tindale did is give us an
extremely good basis that we can map to. Massacres, small pox/other
diseases and displacement are never going to give us the full picture
sadly.

Between OSM admin_level 3 (States/Territories) and admin_level 5 (LGA's) is
the currently unused level 4 and this would be wonderful to set this as
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Nations admin level. Under Nations, we have
clans which are a bit more difficult to map but we could also juggle the
unused admin_level 2

I don't see that mapping Nations is an option, I see it as almost criminal
that we don't already.

Ewen
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Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal languages

[Benjamin Ceravolo]

Hi Graeme,

I have for a while been thinking about if we could add aboriginal
nations/country (I'm not sure which term is correct) to the map in the same
way that political boundaries are.

Now, this has probably been done in some isolated cases around the country,
but it would be great to be able to check what aboriginal nation/country
you live, work, etc. in.

These sites (if/ounce approves is granted) along with local council's
websites would probably help with this mapping as they often contain
information on local indigenous people.

Thanks,

Ben.

On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 14:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Some time ago, there was discussion about Aboriginal languages, & the
> possibility of mapping them.
>
> Just saw this article
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-31/learn-the-name-of-the-indigenous-language-of-the-land-you-live/12252006,
> which links to https://gambay.com.au/map &
> https://www.firstlanguages.org.au/
>
> Page says it's "© Copyright First Languages Australia", but with
> absolutely no mention of any details?
>
> Somebody may like to follow them up if interested?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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