Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Josh Marshall]

Hi Ian,

You can copy+paste the URL when you’re looking at the section in question
on openstreetmap.org.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=menang%20drive#map=18/-34.96511/117.82114=D

I’ve turned the data layer on so you can just click on the nodes and ways
to see their details, and then you can copy that URL to reference it:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/853070680

So on to the question, I suspect it’s a router issue, but quite possibly
something to do with Menang Drive having tagging with bicycle=yes
cycleway:left=yes etc, but the Albany Highway ways not having anything of
the sort, not even lane quantity.

Probably not relevant, but that greater intersection looks like it’s been
mapped with a variety of aerial sources but without imagery offsets being
taken into account. The Maxar layer looks like the most recent, and once I
aligned that best I could (5.24, -9.89), there are still a number of roads
that are well off the imagery.

And the little bike diversions for merging across aren’t mapped… but good
riddance, they’re definitely designed by someone who thinks that it’s fine
for cyclists on major highways who could be doing 35 km/h to slam on the
brakes to take a 90º  turn to cross a lane… ugh.

On 7 Jun 2023, at 12:00 pm, Ian Steer  wrote:

My Garmin GPSMAP 66i gives misleading routing instructions at a new
intersection on Albany Highway near Albany when using OSM data.  I have
looked at the OSM data through JOSM and it all looks good.  I wondered if
anyone else can see what might be causing the strange routing instructions.

The explanation really needs pictures, so I’ve put them in Dropbox:

Screenshot 1 shows the first OSM way of the section in question
(highlighted in red) plus some annotations about the points where the GPS
has instructions for the two misleading manoeuvres:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk7pmpucvp9y5q6/screenshot%201.jpg?dl=0

Screenshot 2 just shows the other OSM way that covers the section in
question:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wpfaip74htzbnyw/screenshot%202.JPG?dl=0

Screenshot 3 shows the routing instructions on the GPS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hy8r91c5syvq4d/screenshot%203.JPG?dl=0

I don’t know how to give OSM way references, but the intersection is at
S34.9647 and E117.8205 (Menang Drive and Albany Highway)

Has anyone got any clues why the GPS would be doing what it is doing ?

Thanks

Ian
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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ben Kelley]

I don't know what causes it, but you can see the same problem with OSMR:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%2C117.8239#map=17/-34.96524/117.82097

 - Ben.
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[talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ian Steer]

My Garmin GPSMAP 66i gives misleading routing instructions at a new
intersection on Albany Highway near Albany when using OSM data.  I have
looked at the OSM data through JOSM and it all looks good.  I wondered if
anyone else can see what might be causing the strange routing instructions.

 

The explanation really needs pictures, so I've put them in Dropbox:

 

Screenshot 1 shows the first OSM way of the section in question (highlighted
in red) plus some annotations about the points where the GPS has
instructions for the two misleading manoeuvres:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk7pmpucvp9y5q6/screenshot%201.jpg?dl=0

 

Screenshot 2 just shows the other OSM way that covers the section in
question:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wpfaip74htzbnyw/screenshot%202.JPG?dl=0

 

Screenshot 3 shows the routing instructions on the GPS:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hy8r91c5syvq4d/screenshot%203.JPG?dl=0

 

I don't know how to give OSM way references, but the intersection is at
S34.9647 and E117.8205 (Menang Drive and Albany Highway)

 

Has anyone got any clues why the GPS would be doing what it is doing ?

 

Thanks

 

Ian

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Re: [talk-au] Streams and dams

[Warin]

On 5/6/23 08:47, Little Maps wrote:

I don’t know if there’s a “correct” method as at least 3 different methods are 
(or were) common in Vic, where I map. (1) continue named stream through dam, 
(2) continue stream through dam but with no name tag, and (3) stop stream at 
dam edge and start again the other side. Method 2 means dam name is rendered 
but not stream/river as well inside the dam. If the stream/river is in a 
relation this isn’t a problem as the whole named stream can be found using the 
relation.



The river/stream 'needs' to be mapped continuous for those that care 
about waterways. (That is not me.)



Ideally the thing would be mapped ;

(for the reservoir area) where ever the water flows if the dam is 'low' and

(dam area) where the water would overflow past the dam, if you don't 
know then through the dam would be the next best thing.





I prefer continuing the waterway through the dam as it makes it a lot easier to 
find gaps in waterways and to show connected watersheds, etc. If dams are often 
dry or rarely full, it also shows where waterway is at low lake levels. 
Logically, also the Murray River flows through Lake Hume. It doesn’t stop at 
one side and start again on the other.

I’ve been editing heaps of streams in Vic over past few months, and it’s common 
for waterways to cross dams but not actually connect with them. It’s important 
that they share a node at each place they cross a dam. Lot’s don’t (or didn’t). 
The same thing applies on the coast, where many streams cross the 
natural=coastline polygon but don’t connect with it.

If all streams that connect with the coast connect properly you can easily do 
an overpass query to find all watersheds that drain into a section of coast. If 
all streams properly cross and connect with dams, it’s easy to find all streams 
that enter the Murray - Darling Basin, for example.

A fine-detail issue on your query below is that, on the ground, streams don’t 
normally pass over earthen dam walls. If they did the wall would erode. 
Instead, there’ll be a side route where water will flow beside the dam when the 
dam is full. Sometimes this can be seen on imagery, often not. IMO this is an 
issue of mapping scale, and it’s fine to map a stream waterway as passing 
through a dam. If someone wants to add the fine detail later they can, while 
still maintaining the connectivity of the waterway.

So, broadly, yes, I think it’s much better if waterways pass through 
constructed reservoirs.

Cheers Ian


On 4 Jun 2023, at 9:48 pm, Tom Brennan  wrote:

Quick question on streams and dams/reservoirs.

If a stream has been dammed, the centreline of the stream should still be 
mapped as a waterway. Correct?

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

[Tom Brennan]

ICMS principles state:
"In Australia, whichever of the two names of the same feature that is 
most likely to be used by the local community is to be used first in a 
sequence [Refer Appendix A, § 4.5]. The sequence of the name should be 
reviewed at regular intervals. If a visual separator is required, it 
shall be a solidus preceded and followed by a space ‘. / . ‘."


Which is why in NSW most dual names are *currently* rendered "European 
name / Aboriginal name".


The latest vector tiles from DCS Spatial Service have these names 
rendered on them:

https://portal.spatial.nsw.gov.au/portal/home/webmap/viewer.html?useExisting=1=de92791f686843e1b2e32e908f241b9c

(See Fort Denison or Shark Island for examples).

All this seems to support the following approach in OSM (basically what 
Phil said)


name:Bradleys Head / Booraghee
name:en=Bradleys Head
name:aus=Booraghee (replace 'aus' if definitively known)

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 6/06/2023 5:01 pm, Little Maps wrote:

On 6 Jun 2023, at 2:29 pm, Ian Sergeant  wrote:


I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly.  
That's not the way that the GNB record them.  Unless someone can find 
some information on the ground that records it that way?


Ian, I stand corrected. NSW National Parks use a dash, not a slash, in 
the example I gave from The Rock Nature Reserve - Kengal Aboriginal 
Place. Sorry for the confusion.



Having said that, Australian geographic names boards do use slashes for 
dual names. This extract is from the Vic Gov guidelines…



“If a visual separator is required for clarity, it should be a solidus ( 
/ ) preceded and followed by a space…. The following examples would be 
acceptable:


Nambruc / Aberfeldy State Forest

Colquhoun State Forest / Boyanga Gidi.”


“Dual names once registered are to be used in full, shortened versions 
are not to be used.”



(Hence dual names are not seen as alternatives.)


 From “Naming rules for places in Victoria 2022 - Statutory requirements 
for naming roads, features and localities”



https://www.land.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/501093/Official-Naming-rules-for-places-in-Victoria-2022.docx


The Vic Gov report refers to the National “Principles for the Consistent 
Use of Place Names. Includes Principles for the Use of Aboriginal and 
Torres Strait Islander Place Names and Dual Naming Depiction Principles” 
which also recommends that a “solidus” (i.e. a slash) is the recommended 
standard.



https://www.icsm.gov.au/sites/default/files/consistent_place_names_principles.pdf


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Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

[Warin]

On 6/6/23 17:06, Phil Wyatt wrote:


Does anyone know of examples overseas with dual naming?



Wales will be full of it. :)  Example

Way: Craig Cerrig Gleisiad a Fan Frynych National Nature Reserve (374428119)

name= Craig Cerrig Gleisiad a Fan Frynych National Nature Reserve
name:cy=Gwarchodfa Natur Genedlaethol Craig Cerrig Gleisiad a Fan Frynych


Yes... after you.

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Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

[Warin]

Naming for Ayres Rock/Uluru was discussed in talk-au on October 2019...

We need to put this on the Australian tagging guidelines once some 
consensus is determined.


Presently ---

alt_name:en=Ayers Rock
alt_name=Ayers Rock
name:en=Uluṟu
name=Uluṟu

official_name:en=Uluru / Ayers Rock
official_name=Uluru / Ayers Rock

-

I don't think Uluru is 'english'. And I'd not use old_name for 'Ayres 
Rock' as I'd think 'Uluru' would be older.



Note: One of the past names was 'Uluru (Ayers Rock)'.


On 6/6/23 14:26, Ian Sergeant wrote:
I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly.  
That's not the way that the GNB record them.  Unless someone can find 
some information on the ground that records it that way?



'Uluru / Ayers Rock'  used to be the signage there, I have no idea if 
'Ayres Rock' has been removed.


.



I understand the desire to not diminish either name when they are dual 
named, but I think it's wrong to think of alt_name as a "lesser" 
name.  Alternative means just that, it's an equally valid, but 
alternative name.  It's looks like exactly the type of scenario 
envisioned by the tag.


IMO it's a bad outcome to end up with multiple names in one tag 
separated by a slash.




I am for


name:en=Ayres Rock

name:aus=Uluru  If the language code is known then use that .. possibly 
use both for redundancy ???



The name= tag should be what is 'on the ground' if there is a slash then 
there should be a slash.



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Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

[Little Maps]

On 6 Jun 2023, at 2:29 pm, Ian Sergeant  wrote:
> 
> I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly.  That's 
> not the way that the GNB record them.  Unless someone can find some 
> information on the ground that records it that way?

Ian, I stand corrected. NSW National Parks use a dash, not a slash, in the 
example I gave from  The Rock Nature Reserve - Kengal Aboriginal Place. Sorry 
for the confusion.

Having said that, Australian geographic names boards do use slashes for dual 
names. This extract is from the Vic Gov guidelines…

“If a visual separator is required for clarity, it should be a solidus ( / ) 
preceded and followed by a space…. The following examples would be acceptable:
Nambruc / Aberfeldy State Forest
Colquhoun State Forest / Boyanga Gidi.”

“Dual names once registered are to be used in full, shortened versions are not 
to be used.”

(Hence dual names are not seen as alternatives.)

From “Naming rules for places in Victoria 2022 - Statutory requirements for 
naming roads, features and localities”

https://www.land.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/501093/Official-Naming-rules-for-places-in-Victoria-2022.docx
 

The Vic Gov report refers to the National “Principles for the Consistent Use of 
Place Names. Includes Principles for the Use of Aboriginal and Torres Strait 
Islander Place Names and Dual Naming Depiction Principles” which also 
recommends that a “solidus” (i.e. a slash) is the recommended standard.

https://www.icsm.gov.au/sites/default/files/consistent_place_names_principles.pdf
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Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Ian,

 

I cant actually find a FULL policy in NSW

 

https://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/policy-and-legislation/aboriginal-land-use-planning/nsw-dual-naming-policy

https://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/aboriginal_place_naming/dual_naming

 

However sixmaps does find indigenous names and seems to use the reverse of 
Tasmania with the English name first then the slash then the indigenous name 
(search for wahluu)

 

Interestingly, in Tasmania the Aboriginal and dual naming layer in LIST has the 
indigenous name in the ‘name’ field and a separate ‘Dualname’ field for the 
extended naming. However the actual mapping shows only the dualname which 
abides by the actual policy. Not all indigenous named features are dual named.

 

https://maps.thelist.tas.gov.au/listmap/app/list/map?bookmarkId=884426 and 
click on the orange polygons

 

Maybe over time the dual naming will be replaced with indigenous names only, 
but only time will tell. In the meantime, in Tassie, I will stick with the 
options below to give data users the most options.

 

name=kunanyi / Mount Wellington

name:en=Mount Wellington

name:xtz=kunanyi

 

 

Does anyone know of examples overseas with dual naming?

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Ian Sergeant  
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 2:26 PM
To: Ben Ritter 
Cc: OSM Australian Talk List 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

 

I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly.  That's not 
the way that the GNB record them.  Unless someone can find some information on 
the ground that records it that way?

 

I understand the desire to not diminish either name when they are dual named, 
but I think it's wrong to think of alt_name as a "lesser" name.  Alternative 
means just that, it's an equally valid, but alternative name.  It's looks like 
exactly the type of scenario envisioned by the tag.

 

IMO it's a bad outcome to end up with multiple names in one tag separated by a 
slash.

 

Ian.

 

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 12:45, Ben Ritter mailto:benjaminarit...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I agree that in places where a joint name is in use, that should be documented 
as `name=Booraghee / Bradleys Head`as. From a data perspective, I think it is 
also useful to know that the english called it (in english spelling) 
`name:en=Bradleys Head` and the locals called it (in local romanised spelling) 
`name:aus=Booraghee`.

 

I have no great understanding of the languages involved, but I want to see it 
as "Booraghee / Bradleys Head" on most maps (because that's part of our 
cultural style, as documented in the quoted policy). On the other hand, when I 
hook up a routing text-to-speech engine, I'm going to have a much better time 
pronouncing the spelling of `name:en` and `name:aus`. Even better after someone 
in the know replaces the vague and non-specific `:aus` form with the actual 
language(s).

 

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 09:27, Little Maps mailto:mapslit...@gmail.com> > wrote:

This may depend on the specific place but in many places I believe Phil’s 
interpretation is correct and Andrew’s is inappropriate. Many places and 
reserves now have joint management or co-ownership, and dual/joint names. Joint 
names are not alternative names. John Roberts-Smith is John Roberts-Smith. He 
is not John Roberts and/or alt-name John Smith. The Rock Nature Reserve / 
Kengal Aboriginal Place is a legislated reserve. This is the legislated name, 
as described in the management plan and signposted on all new signs. Since OSM 
maps what is on the ground, we should include the entire joint name in the one 
name tag. We are not listing alternatives, we are presenting the entire, 
signposted, legal name in the one tag.

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