Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 22:51, Sebastian Spiess  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> your case 1 appears to me like a parking lane. With or without cycle lane
> this is a common occurrence in most suburbs. I've asked about parking lanes
> some time ago.
>

The parking lane is separate though, it's not shared with the cycle lane.
So it's existence doesn't change the fact there is a cycle lane here. So
you'd just also add the parking lane tags.

Some people have been adding the tag cycleway:lane=doorzone where the
cyclelane exists within the door zone of a parking lane.


>
> case 2 - what is the lane between the two continuous lines for?
>

It's just a buffer between the cyclist and vehicles.


> case 3 - this is where I ask me at what width does a shoulder start being
> a shoulder?
>

In real life the shoulder refers to anything outside of the solid painted
line but before the gutter, even if it's too narrow for a car I'd still
consider it a shoulder.

I think https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder should still be
used if not wide enough for a car, and let shoulder:width indicate that.


> case 4 - have not notices that one.
>

I searched for at least 15 minutes before finding one!


>
> I give you case 5 - similar to case 3 but with markings to indicate
> bicycle use, on junctions there are even green cycle lanes.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.78641/151.92969
>

That looks like case 2 to me. It's a shoulder but it doubles as a cycle
lane.


>
> Case 5 was the reason I've raise the question. Following your cases I
> would tag it (shouder=yes, cycleway=lane) I do recall signs with bikes on
> them along the road, which I would interpret as official cycle way? However
> I noticed that there was no line marked on the outside of the road.
>
>
> I think that the shoulder tag is more important on higher level roads and
> rural roads. In urban areas, residential roads I would use the parking lane
> tags.
>

Sure there is a grey area in between, so I'd go with whichever best
describes it's primary use.
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi,

your case 1 appears to me like a parking lane. With or without cycle
lane this is a common occurrence in most suburbs. I've asked about
parking lanes some time ago.

case 2 - what is the lane between the two continuous lines for?

case 3 - this is where I ask me at what width does a shoulder start
being a shoulder?

case 4 - have not notices that one.

I give you case 5 - similar to case 3 but with markings to indicate
bicycle use, on junctions there are even green cycle lanes.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.78641/151.92969

Case 5 was the reason I've raise the question. Following your cases I
would tag it (shouder=yes, cycleway=lane) I do recall signs with bikes
on them along the road, which I would interpret as official cycle way?
However I noticed that there was no line marked on the outside of the road.


I think that the shoulder tag is more important on higher level roads
and rural roads. In urban areas, residential roads I would use the
parking lane tags.


On 23/1/20 5:34 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  > wrote:
>
> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly
> when they have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>
>
> I've seen a few different scenarios.
>
> - a dedicate cycle lane (only used as a cyclelane, not an emergency
> shoulder) cycleway=lane + shoulder=no
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.81151/151.18789
> - a shoulder which doubles as a marked cycle lane (it's an emergency
> shoulder, but with markings to indicate bicycle use) (shouder=yes,
> cycleway=lane)
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.64938/150.84838
> - a shoulder which can be used by bicycles but has no bicycle markings
> or signage (shoulder=yes cycleway=no, bicycle=yes)
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.58996/150.60760
> - have both a cycle lane and a shoulder, though segregated by paint
> (cycleway=lane, shoulder=yes) - no way to distinguish this from case
> (2) eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.43134/151.29444
>
> I admit though this can be subjective.
>
> So my rule of thumb is if there is a painted marking for bicycles and
> it's separated from other traffic from paint then use cycleway=lane,
> you can also then consider if this is a road shoulder too and add
> shoulder=yes if so.
>
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 14:30, Ian Sergeant  > wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> Shoulders should always be tagged appropriately.
>
> Shoulders legally in Australia can be used by all bicycles -
> whether or not they have a bicycle stencil (painted bicycle sign) 
> And a bicycle lane is legally indicated by a sign and not a
> stencil.  Legally the stencil has no meaning at all.
>
>
> My view is we should be tagging based on the effective feature on the
> ground, and not solely based on if it meets a specific legal
> classification. So while legally it might need to meet certain
> crieteria to be an official "cycle lane" so long as it's dedicated for
> use by bicycles and separated from other traffic, it's effectively a
> cycleway=lane in OSM.

I've also seen some shoulders that are quite rough and not great cycle
lanes.

>  
>
> My personal advice currently in Australia is to caution against
> indicating there is bicycle infrastructure where there is no
> amenity.   Since, this is a far greater problem in OSM than
> missing cycle routes and infrastructure, and takes far longer to
> correct and survey.  Google Maps has actually come from behind to
> lead OSM in this aspect now in Sydney in most areas.
>
Ian, could you clarify the problem? I understand you refer to amenity as
in signs and stencils for cycle routes?
>
> Are there any places in particular you think we are lacking? I've been
> working hard to add new recently built infrastructure and well as
> remove cycle tags from OSM where there is nothing left on the ground
> anymore.
>  
>
> That said, most motorways that have a wide shoulder, a cycle
> stencil, and permit cycling have a bicycle lane indicated.  I
> think this is probably appropriate.
>
> Ian.
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  > wrote:
>
> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and
> particularly when they have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>
> A wiki entry for shoulder exists but is very basic
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
> 

Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Andrew Harvey]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  wrote:

> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly when they
> have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>

I've seen a few different scenarios.

- a dedicate cycle lane (only used as a cyclelane, not an emergency
shoulder) cycleway=lane + shoulder=no eg
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.81151/151.18789
- a shoulder which doubles as a marked cycle lane (it's an emergency
shoulder, but with markings to indicate bicycle use) (shouder=yes,
cycleway=lane) eg
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.64938/150.84838
- a shoulder which can be used by bicycles but has no bicycle markings or
signage (shoulder=yes cycleway=no, bicycle=yes) eg
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.58996/150.60760
- have both a cycle lane and a shoulder, though segregated by paint
(cycleway=lane, shoulder=yes) - no way to distinguish this from case (2)
eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.43134/151.29444

I admit though this can be subjective.

So my rule of thumb is if there is a painted marking for bicycles and it's
separated from other traffic from paint then use cycleway=lane, you can
also then consider if this is a road shoulder too and add shoulder=yes if
so.

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 14:30, Ian Sergeant  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Shoulders should always be tagged appropriately.
>
> Shoulders legally in Australia can be used by all bicycles - whether or
> not they have a bicycle stencil (painted bicycle sign)  And a bicycle lane
> is legally indicated by a sign and not a stencil.  Legally the stencil has
> no meaning at all.
>

My view is we should be tagging based on the effective feature on the
ground, and not solely based on if it meets a specific legal
classification. So while legally it might need to meet certain crieteria to
be an official "cycle lane" so long as it's dedicated for use by bicycles
and separated from other traffic, it's effectively a cycleway=lane in OSM.


> My personal advice currently in Australia is to caution against indicating
> there is bicycle infrastructure where there is no amenity.   Since, this is
> a far greater problem in OSM than missing cycle routes and infrastructure,
> and takes far longer to correct and survey.  Google Maps has actually come
> from behind to lead OSM in this aspect now in Sydney in most areas.
>

Are there any places in particular you think we are lacking? I've been
working hard to add new recently built infrastructure and well as remove
cycle tags from OSM where there is nothing left on the ground anymore.


> That said, most motorways that have a wide shoulder, a cycle stencil, and
> permit cycling have a bicycle lane indicated.  I think this is probably
> appropriate.
>
> Ian.
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  wrote:
>
>> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly when they
>> have painted bicycle signs?
>>
>> Motorways would be another candidate.
>>
>> A wiki entry for shoulder exists but is very basic
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Ian Sergeant]

Hi,

Shoulders should always be tagged appropriately.

Shoulders legally in Australia can be used by all bicycles - whether or not
they have a bicycle stencil (painted bicycle sign)  And a bicycle lane is
legally indicated by a sign and not a stencil.  Legally the stencil has no
meaning at all.

My personal advice currently in Australia is to caution against indicating
there is bicycle infrastructure where there is no amenity.   Since, this is
a far greater problem in OSM than missing cycle routes and infrastructure,
and takes far longer to correct and survey.  Google Maps has actually come
from behind to lead OSM in this aspect now in Sydney in most areas.

That said, most motorways that have a wide shoulder, a cycle stencil, and
permit cycling have a bicycle lane indicated.  I think this is probably
appropriate.

Ian.

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  wrote:

> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly when they
> have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>
> A wiki entry for shoulder exists but is very basic
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[David Wales]

If they have a painted bicycle lane, surely that would make it a bicycle lane, 
rather than a shoulder?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_lanes

On 21 January 2020 2:18:05 pm AEDT, "Sebastian S."  wrote:
>Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly when
>they have painted bicycle signs?
>
>Motorways would be another candidate.
>
>A wiki entry for shoulder exists but is very basic
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

[talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Sebastian S.]

Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly when they have 
painted bicycle signs?

Motorways would be another candidate.

A wiki entry for shoulder exists but is very basic 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au