Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Sebastian S.]

Hi, thanks for the Strava point. A subset indeed but a substantial use.

I agree with Andrew that tagging family friendly routing is not something for 
the map but for a routing engine.

Maybe there is a tag combination similar to discouraged and surface quality to 
indicate the proximity to high speed traffic. But then again as Andrew said the 
highway/motorway tagging dies indicate that already.


On 13 April 2020 9:43:54 pm AEST, Little Maps  wrote:
>Hi everyone, I’m very new to OSM so can’t comment on the technicalities
>but to add some data to the question of frequency of usage, the Strava
>heat map shows that the M1 and M2 are among the most frequently ridden
>roads in Sydney, by those cyclists who log their tracks in Strava. A
>biased subset of cyclists to be sure, but the heat map does provide
>unambiguous data on usage and the motorways definitely get used a lot.
>See here... (you have to log in to Strava to see closeup images).
>
>https://www.strava.com/heatmap#11.94/151.13897/-33.87583/hot/ride
>
>Best wishes Ian
>
>
>
>> On 13 Apr 2020, at 9:07 pm, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have bicycled on the M2. I much prefer it the the alternative that
>has a lot of up and down, dangerous cross streets where some drivers
>assume right of way over bicycles and a less direct route. There are
>people who commute to and from work on it, if there were a convenient
>safer route they would use that instead. 
>> 
>> 
>> On 13/4/20 8:01 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>>> I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an actual route (but
>still designated bicycle infrastructure since it's signposted), I can
>see arguments both ways. 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27, Dongchen Yue 
>wrote:
 It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I
>agree that the solution for family-friendly routes would be a different
>renderer, until conditions change in Australia). However, regarding the
>bike symbol on the M2 on the Mapillary example, it’s designed to be a
>sign of caution instead of a route guide
>(https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf).
>> 
>> The document is 177 pages long... which page? 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Some bicycle signs are to caution motor vehicle operators as to the
>presence of bicycles, not to caution the bicycle rider.
>> 
 
> Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey
>:
> 
> Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp
>on the M2 in Sydney
>https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on the M7
>in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.
> 
> The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a
>shared path and off road, but as you can see above on the M7 motorway
>itself there is clearly dedicated bicycle signage and infrastructure.
> 
> Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've never
>seen a sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we
>mostly map the infrastructure on the ground not the traffic level of
>the road. 
> 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue
> wrote:
>> The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path
>(https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which is a ~40km
>uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with
>normally (though obviously not currently) very high usage for
>recreational cycling. However, although cycling on the motorway
>shoulders is neither recommended nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM as
>the cycle route „M7s"
>(https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767=C)
>along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
>> 
>>> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill
>:
>>> 
>>> Hi Dongchen,
>>>Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review
>and discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners
>Creek cycle path in Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear
>incorrect but is not). 
>>> 
>>>  Ewen
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue
> wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially
>in Sydney) being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to
>be a common approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia
>of which cycling is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any
>practical use (i.e. providing convenient and safe connections for
>people cycling).
 
 Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of
>cycle routes (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM
>Wiki), that is, guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although
>cycling on most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically
>permitted and commonly done by the very few “strong and fearless”
>people (only ~1%, as indicated in past transport research), it’s both
>subjectively and 

Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Little Maps]

Hi everyone, I’m very new to OSM so can’t comment on the technicalities but to 
add some data to the question of frequency of usage, the Strava heat map shows 
that the M1 and M2 are among the most frequently ridden roads in Sydney, by 
those cyclists who log their tracks in Strava. A biased subset of cyclists to 
be sure, but the heat map does provide unambiguous data on usage and the 
motorways definitely get used a lot. See here... (you have to log in to Strava 
to see closeup images).

https://www.strava.com/heatmap#11.94/151.13897/-33.87583/hot/ride

Best wishes Ian



> On 13 Apr 2020, at 9:07 pm, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have bicycled on the M2. I much prefer it the the alternative that has a 
> lot of up and down, dangerous cross streets where some drivers assume right 
> of way over bicycles and a less direct route. There are people who commute to 
> and from work on it, if there were a convenient safer route they would use 
> that instead. 
> 
> 
> On 13/4/20 8:01 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>> I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an actual route (but still 
>> designated bicycle infrastructure since it's signposted), I can see 
>> arguments both ways. 
>> 
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27, Dongchen Yue  wrote:
>>> It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I agree that 
>>> the solution for family-friendly routes would be a different renderer, 
>>> until conditions change in Australia). However, regarding the bike symbol 
>>> on the M2 on the Mapillary example, it’s designed to be a sign of caution 
>>> instead of a route guide 
>>> (https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf).
> 
> The document is 177 pages long... which page? 
> 
> 
> 
> Some bicycle signs are to caution motor vehicle operators as to the presence 
> of bicycles, not to caution the bicycle rider.
> 
>>> 
 Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey :
 
 Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp on the M2 
 in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on 
 the M7 in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.
 
 The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a shared path 
 and off road, but as you can see above on the M7 motorway itself there is 
 clearly dedicated bicycle signage and infrastructure.
 
 Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've never seen a 
 sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we mostly map 
 the infrastructure on the ground not the traffic level of the road. 
 
 On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue  wrote:
> The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path 
> (https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which is a ~40km 
> uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with normally 
> (though obviously not currently) very high usage for recreational 
> cycling. However, although cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither 
> recommended nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s" 
> (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767=C) 
> along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
> 
>> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill :
>> 
>> Hi Dongchen,
>>Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review and 
>> discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners Creek 
>> cycle path in Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear incorrect 
>> but is not). 
>> 
>>  Ewen
>> 
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in 
>>> Sydney) being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be 
>>> a common approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of 
>>> which cycling is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any 
>>> practical use (i.e. providing convenient and safe connections for 
>>> people cycling).
>>> 
>>> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle 
>>> routes (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM 
>>> Wiki), that is, guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although 
>>> cycling on most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically 
>>> permitted and commonly done by the very few “strong and fearless” 
>>> people (only ~1%, as indicated in past transport research), it’s both 
>>> subjectively and statically quite unsafe, which gives no use to most 
>>> people when rendered on tiles such as OpenCycleMap.
>>> 
>>> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially 
>>> endorsed routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate 
>>> pieces of 

Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Warin]

I have bicycled on the M2. I much prefer it the the alternative that has 
a lot of up and down, dangerous cross streets where some drivers assume 
right of way over bicycles and a less direct route. There are people who 
commute to and from work on it, if there were a convenient safer route 
they would use that instead.



On 13/4/20 8:01 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an actual route (but 
still designated bicycle infrastructure since it's signposted), I can 
see arguments both ways.


On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27, Dongchen Yue > wrote:


It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I
agree that the solution for family-friendly routes would be a
different renderer, until conditions change in Australia).
However, regarding the bike symbol on the M2 on the Mapillary
example, it’s designed to be a sign of caution instead of a route
guide

(https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf).



The document is 177 pages long... which page?


Some bicycle signs are to caution motor vehicle operators as to the 
presence of bicycles, not to caution the bicycle rider.





Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey
mailto:andrew.harv...@gmail.com>>:

Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp
on the M2 in Sydney
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on
the M7 in Sydney
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.

The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a
shared path and off road, but as you can see above on the M7
motorway itself there is clearly dedicated bicycle signage and
infrastructure.

Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've
never seen a sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is
irrelevant we mostly map the infrastructure on the ground not the
traffic level of the road.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue
mailto:yuedongche...@gmail.com>> wrote:

The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared
Path (https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which
is a ~40km uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7
Motorway with normally (though obviously not currently) very
high usage for recreational cycling. However, although
cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither recommended nor
common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s"
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767=C)
along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.


Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill
mailto:ewen.h...@gmail.com>>:

Hi Dongchen,
   Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can
review and discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red
carpet Gardiners Creek cycle path in Melbourne hangs under
the freeway might appear incorrect but is not).

 Ewen

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue
mailto:yuedongche...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Hi all,

I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia
(especially in Sydney) being mapped as cycle routes on
OSM. Although this seems to be a common approach for
motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which
cycling is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of
any practical use (i.e. providing convenient and safe
connections for people cycling).

Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general
purpose of cycle routes (both from an engineering
perspective and the official OSM Wiki), that is, guiding
people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on
most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically
permitted and commonly done by the very few “strong and
fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated in past
transport research), it’s both subjectively and
statically quite unsafe, which gives no use to most
people when rendered on tiles such as OpenCycleMap.

Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes
aren’t officially endorsed routes whatsoever, and are
always referred to as separate pieces of infrastructure
(e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at
all, since they aren’t much use to most people; tagging
them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’ and ‘cycleway’:
‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think
of this solution?

Thanks in advance,
Dongchen Yue

Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Andrew Harvey]

I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an actual route (but still
designated bicycle infrastructure since it's signposted), I can see
arguments both ways.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27, Dongchen Yue  wrote:

> It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I agree that
> the solution for family-friendly routes would be a different renderer,
> until conditions change in Australia). However, regarding the bike symbol
> on the M2 on the Mapillary example, it’s designed to be a sign of caution
> instead of a route guide (
> https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf
> ).
>
> Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey :
>
> Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp on the M2
> in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on
> the M7 in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.
>
> The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a shared path
> and off road, but as you can see above on the M7 motorway itself there is
> clearly dedicated bicycle signage and infrastructure.
>
> Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've never seen a
> sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we mostly map
> the infrastructure on the ground not the traffic level of the road.
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue 
> wrote:
>
>> The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path (
>> https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which is a ~40km
>> uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with normally
>> (though obviously not currently) very high usage for recreational cycling.
>> However, although cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither recommended
>> nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s" (
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767=C)
>> along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
>>
>> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill :
>>
>> Hi Dongchen,
>>Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review and
>> discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners Creek
>> cycle path in Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear incorrect but
>> is not).
>>
>>  Ewen
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in Sydney)
>>> being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be a common
>>> approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which cycling
>>> is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any practical use (i.e.
>>> providing convenient and safe connections for people cycling).
>>>
>>> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle
>>> routes (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM Wiki),
>>> that is, guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on
>>> most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically permitted and commonly
>>> done by the very few “strong and fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated
>>> in past transport research), it’s both subjectively and statically quite
>>> unsafe, which gives no use to most people when rendered on tiles such as
>>> OpenCycleMap.
>>>
>>> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially
>>> endorsed routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate pieces
>>> of infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
>>> Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all, since they
>>> aren’t much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’
>>> and ‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think of
>>> this solution?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> Dongchen Yue
>>> ___
>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Warm Regards
>>
>> Ewen Hill
>> Internet Development Australia
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>
>
___
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Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Dongchen Yue]

It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I agree that the 
solution for family-friendly routes would be a different renderer, until 
conditions change in Australia). However, regarding the bike symbol on the M2 
on the Mapillary example, it’s designed to be a sign of caution instead of a 
route guide 
(https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf
 
).

> Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey :
> 
> Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp on the M2 in 
> Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA 
>  and on the M7 in 
> Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA 
> .
> 
> The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a shared path and 
> off road, but as you can see above on the M7 motorway itself there is clearly 
> dedicated bicycle signage and infrastructure.
> 
> Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've never seen a 
> sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we mostly map the 
> infrastructure on the ground not the traffic level of the road. 
> 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue  > wrote:
> The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path 
> (https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path 
> ), which is a ~40km 
> uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with normally 
> (though obviously not currently) very high usage for recreational cycling. 
> However, although cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither recommended 
> nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s" 
> (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767=C 
> ) along 
> with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
> 
>> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill > >:
>> 
>> Hi Dongchen,
>>Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review and discuss 
>> them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners Creek cycle path 
>> in Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear incorrect but is not). 
>> 
>>  Ewen
>> 
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue > > wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in Sydney) 
>> being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be a common 
>> approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which cycling 
>> is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any practical use (i.e. 
>> providing convenient and safe connections for people cycling).
>> 
>> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle routes 
>> (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM Wiki), that is, 
>> guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on most 
>> motorway shoulders in Australia is technically permitted and commonly done 
>> by the very few “strong and fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated in past 
>> transport research), it’s both subjectively and statically quite unsafe, 
>> which gives no use to most people when rendered on tiles such as 
>> OpenCycleMap.
>> 
>> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially 
>> endorsed routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate pieces of 
>> infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
>> Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all, since they 
>> aren’t much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’ 
>> and ‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think of 
>> this solution?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Dongchen Yue
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Warm Regards
>> 
>> Ewen Hill
>> Internet Development Australia
> 
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au 
> 

___
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Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Andrew Harvey]

Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp on the M2
in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on
the M7 in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.

The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a shared path
and off road, but as you can see above on the M7 motorway itself there is
clearly dedicated bicycle signage and infrastructure.

Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've never seen a
sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we mostly map
the infrastructure on the ground not the traffic level of the road.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue  wrote:

> The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path (
> https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which is a ~40km
> uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with normally
> (though obviously not currently) very high usage for recreational cycling.
> However, although cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither recommended
> nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s" (
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767=C) along
> with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
>
> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill :
>
> Hi Dongchen,
>Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review and
> discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners Creek
> cycle path in Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear incorrect but
> is not).
>
>  Ewen
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in Sydney)
>> being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be a common
>> approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which cycling
>> is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any practical use (i.e.
>> providing convenient and safe connections for people cycling).
>>
>> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle
>> routes (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM Wiki),
>> that is, guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on
>> most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically permitted and commonly
>> done by the very few “strong and fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated
>> in past transport research), it’s both subjectively and statically quite
>> unsafe, which gives no use to most people when rendered on tiles such as
>> OpenCycleMap.
>>
>> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially
>> endorsed routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate pieces
>> of infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
>> Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all, since they
>> aren’t much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’
>> and ‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think of
>> this solution?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Dongchen Yue
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>
>
> --
> Warm Regards
>
> Ewen Hill
> Internet Development Australia
>
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
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Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Andrew Harvey]

Hi Dongchen,

In my view route=bicycle should be used where signage indicates a "route"
through one or more connecting paths, so that includes:

1. The white painted bicycle stencils on the road with directional arrows
indicating the suggested route for bicycles. These are common on quiet
residential roads, but often don't have a route name or other signposts.
2. Blue/white signposts with a bicycle icon, usually with the suburb name
that the route is heading to sometimes with a distance number

Then you'll also see suggested routes published in various maps, where
either governments or other bodies suggest as good routes but have nothing
on the ground.

I think it's quite clear that 1 and 2 should be mapped as bicycle=route, 3
I would generally say no with some exceptions.

This should be irrespective of subjective opinions like safety,
pleasantness, etc. those things are hard to make verifiable in an objective
way, see also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability. This isn't
a hard rule, but for example a "safety index" tag isn't a good tag for this
reason.

A number of motorways in Sydney like the M5, M7, M2 have signage for
bicycles, painted bicycle icons in the shoulder and specific crossings for
bicycles at exit/entry ramps, whether this together constitutes a route or
simply just some kind of bicycle infrastructure isn't clear, but I'd lean
towards mapping them as routes because of all this signage (they even go so
far as signposting detour routes when sections of the motorway need to be
closed due to construction, this happen in the last year or so for the M2,
so based on this I'd say they should count as bicycle routes).

Any good bicycle routing engine out there will take into account the
highway classification plus a range of other tags to determine suitability,
so a routing engine for family friendly rides would quite easily choose to
avoid highway=motorway, regardless of route=bicycle or cycleway=lane or not
on the motorway. If you want a bicycle map which is family friendly again
it's easy to exclude highway=motorway, that should be a routing/rendering
decision, not a data decision since data should map what's on the ground
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Map_what.27s_on_the_ground
.

I disagree that bicycle routes are only ever for family friendly routes,
many people do use these motorway cycleways they can be faster and more
efficient ways of getting from A to B.

In my opinion they are cycleway=lane due to them being separated from
vehicles by paint and designated for bicycles due to the white painted
bicycle symbols + dedicated exit/entry ramp crossings.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in Sydney)
> being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be a common
> approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which cycling
> is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any practical use (i.e.
> providing convenient and safe connections for people cycling).
>
> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle
> routes (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM Wiki),
> that is, guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on
> most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically permitted and commonly
> done by the very few “strong and fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated
> in past transport research), it’s both subjectively and statically quite
> unsafe, which gives no use to most people when rendered on tiles such as
> OpenCycleMap.
>
> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially
> endorsed routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate pieces
> of infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
> Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all, since they
> aren’t much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’
> and ‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think of
> this solution?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dongchen Yue
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Dongchen Yue]

The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path 
(https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path 
), which is a ~40km 
uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with normally 
(though obviously not currently) very high usage for recreational cycling. 
However, although cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither recommended nor 
common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s" 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767=C 
) along 
with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.

> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill :
> 
> Hi Dongchen,
>Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review and discuss 
> them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners Creek cycle path in 
> Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear incorrect but is not). 
> 
>  Ewen
> 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue  > wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in Sydney) 
> being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be a common 
> approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which cycling 
> is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any practical use (i.e. 
> providing convenient and safe connections for people cycling).
> 
> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle routes 
> (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM Wiki), that is, 
> guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on most motorway 
> shoulders in Australia is technically permitted and commonly done by the very 
> few “strong and fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated in past transport 
> research), it’s both subjectively and statically quite unsafe, which gives no 
> use to most people when rendered on tiles such as OpenCycleMap.
> 
> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially endorsed 
> routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate pieces of 
> infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
> Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all, since they 
> aren’t much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’ and 
> ‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think of this 
> solution?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Dongchen Yue
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Warm Regards
> 
> Ewen Hill
> Internet Development Australia

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[talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Dongchen Yue]

Hi all,

I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in Sydney) being 
mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be a common approach for 
motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which cycling is allowed on, I 
can hardly imagine it to be of any practical use (i.e. providing convenient and 
safe connections for people cycling).

Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle routes 
(both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM Wiki), that is, 
guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on most motorway 
shoulders in Australia is technically permitted and commonly done by the very 
few “strong and fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated in past transport 
research), it’s both subjectively and statically quite unsafe, which gives no 
use to most people when rendered on tiles such as OpenCycleMap.

Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially endorsed 
routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate pieces of 
infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all, since they aren’t 
much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’ and 
‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think of this 
solution?

Thanks in advance,
Dongchen Yue___
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