[OSM-talk-be] University tagging

[Ruben Maes]

Hi everyone

Those quarterly projects are a really good plan. Do universities count as well? 
;)

As I understand it, the ISCED levels are as follows for Flanders:

Basisonderwijs
1   Lagere school (Primary education)

Secundair onderwijs
2   1e-3e middelbaar (Lower secondary education)
3   4e-6e middelbaar (Upper secondary education)
4   Specialisatie BSO (Post-secondary non-tertiary education)

Hogeschool
5   Professionele bachelor (Short-cycle tertiary education)

Universiteit
6   Academische bachelor (Bachelor or equivalent)
7   Master (Master or equivalent)
8   Doctoraat (Doctoral or equivalent)

which means that universities get isced:level=6;7;8, right? If that's right, 
I'll add all these descriptions to the wiki page.

Wednesday 13 January 2016 07:57:24, eMerzh:
> Merci Marc !
> 
> ISCED semble intéressant... Bien que pas super claire et les spécificités
> belges (fr ou nl ne soit décrite.
> 
> Et sinon, je me suis demandé hier comment marquer les écoles spécialisée
> genre type 1 a 8 pour la communauté française.
> 
> Brice
> Le 12 janv. 2016 10:31 AM, "Marc Gemis"  a écrit :
> 
> > Il y a
> >
> > * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ISCED
> > *  en France on utilise par example school:fr=college
> > * operator/religion voir
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dschool
> >
> > m.
> >
> > 2016-01-12 10:16 GMT+01:00 eMerzh :
> >
> >> Très bonne idée :) i'm in ...
> >> et l'idée d'un projet limité avec un objectif précis est très motivant :)
> >>
> >> des idées comment tagguer des info complémentaire ?  genre le réseau
> >> (libre/ communal / ...) ou le(s) niveaux maternel (y/n), primaire (y/n) ,
> >> etc
> >> ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Le 11 janvier 2016 à 11:19, lionel bulpa  a
> >> écrit :
> >>
> >>> Bonjour,
> >>>
> >>> Je pense que c'est une bonne idée, en plus, c'est motivant d'avoir un
> >>> objectif. Je pense qu'on avancera plus vite avec un objectif
> >>>
> >>> Lio
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> From: marc.ge...@gmail.com
> >>> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:39:51 +0100
> >>> To: talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Projects - Défis du trimestre BE
> >>> - BE Driemaandelijks projecten
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I like the idea of a quarterly project as well. Anything that might get
> >>> people motivated to map is good.
> >>>
> >>> m
> >>>
> >>> 2016-01-10 21:21 GMT+01:00 Bruno Veyckemans 
> >>> :
> >>>
> >>> [FR] Bonjour à tous,
> >>>
> >>> Je viens de découvrir les UK Quarterly Projects
> >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_Quarterly_Projects qui commence
> >>> 2016 avec le défi de mettre à jour les données "écoles" du Royaume-Uni et
> >>> je trouve géniale cette idée de se concentrer ensemble sur un thème à
> >>> l'échelle du pays.
> >>>
> >>> Question: pourquoi ne pas s'y mettre pour la Belgique ?
> >>>
> >>> C'est ce que j'ai tenté de faire à l'échelle de Bruxelles il y a deux
> >>> mois, avec un beau succès pour les musées:
> >>> http://ici.brussels/liste-musees grâce à certains mappeurs qui m'ont
> >>> suivi sur Twitter, notamment eMerzh (voir stats en-dessous). Comme vous
> >>> pouvez le voir sur le graphique du dessus, le travail a porté ses fruits 
> >>> :)
> >>>
> >>> Pourquoi ne pas commencer nous aussi 2016 avec le projet de mettre à
> >>> jour les écoles de Belgique ? Voici déjà de quoi vous donner une idée du
> >>> chantier, toujours pour Bruxelles: http://ici.brussels/liste-ecoles Si
> >>> l'enthousiasme est là, je peux tenter de faire une interface similaire 
> >>> pour
> >>> toute la Belgique...
> >>>
> >>> Est-ce que vous pensez qu'on peut être suffisamment nombreux sur le coup
> >>> pour que ça fonctionne ? Est-ce que ça a déjà été fait pour la Belgique ?
> >>> Pensez-vous qu'il faille écrire une page de directives sur le wiki pour
> >>> harmoniser le travail, créer un hashtag et des stats d'avancement ? Est-ce
> >>> qu'il vaut mieux commencer avec un thème plus "basique" ? Est-ce que vous
> >>> participerez ?
> >>>
> >>> Merci pour vos commentaires et belle semaine !
> >>> Bruno
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>>
> >>> [EN] Do you think it could be a good idea to launch "BE Quarterly
> >>> Projects" on the model used by UK mappers ?
> >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_Quarterly_Projects
> >>> Could we begin by mapping belgian schools during the first quarter of
> >>> 2016 ? Would you be part of the project ?
> >>> Thanks !
> >>> Bruno
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>>
> >>> [NL] Vinden jullie een goed idee "Driemaandelijks projecten" te lanceren
> >>> voor België, op het model dat wordt gebruikt door de Britse mappers met 
> >>> hun
> >>> "UK Quarterly Projects"
> >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_Quarterly_Projects ? Zouden
> >>> jullie deelnemen ?
> >>> Bedankt !
> >>> Bruno

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] University tagging

[Ben Laenen]

On Thursday 21 January 2016 12:55:25 Ben Laenen wrote:
> But I may very well be wrong, when I saw the threads on this list I did a
> little bit of googling, and that's what I came up with.

After some more googling, this site has a perfect overview of all the levels 
in Flanders:

http://vlaamsekwalificatiestructuur.be/wat-is-vks/kwalificatieniveaus/

Ben


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] University tagging

[Ben Laenen]

On Thursday 21 January 2016 12:38:43 Ruben Maes wrote:
> (...)
>
> As I understand it, the ISCED levels are as follows for Flanders:

I think I understand it differently then :-)


> (...)
> 
> Secundair onderwijs
> 2 1e-3e middelbaar (Lower secondary education)
> 3 4e-6e middelbaar (Upper secondary education)
> 4 Specialisatie BSO (Post-secondary non-tertiary education)

I think this one is more difficult, with 2 being first two years of secondary, 
3 
the third and fourth year, and 4 the full ASO or TSO.

> Hogeschool
> 5 Professionele bachelor (Short-cycle tertiary education)

Do these have their own group? I thought 5 was something for HBO5, and the 
"hogescholen" go into the same bachelor and master groups of 6 and 7...


> Universiteit
> 6 Academische bachelor (Bachelor or equivalent)
> 7 Master (Master or equivalent)
> 8 Doctoraat (Doctoral or equivalent)

But I may very well be wrong, when I saw the threads on this list I did a 
little bit of googling, and that's what I came up with.

But these are the numbers that Flanders gives to them, they don't translate 
one to one to the international numbers...

Ben


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] University tagging

[Ruben Maes]

Thursday 21 January 2016 12:57:09, Ben Laenen:
> After some more googling, this site has a perfect overview of all the levels 
> in Flanders:
> 
> http://vlaamsekwalificatiestructuur.be/wat-is-vks/kwalificatieniveaus/

Aha, so would we also want a vks:level tag? Or just apply ISCED levels?

I tried to figure it all out based on [1] and [2]. ([2] applies ISCED 1997 to 
our Flemish structure, but we're mapping ISCED 2011. Wikipedia provides a 
comparison of those two schemes.) This becomes:
__

VKS 19972011Name
Basischool
/   0   0   Kleuteronderwijs
1   1   1   Lager onderwijs

Middelbare school
/   2   2   1ste graad secundair onderwijs

2   /   /   2de graad BSO
/   /   /   2de graad ASO, TSO, KSO

3   3   3   3de graad BSO; deeltijds 
beroepssecundair onderwijs
4   3   3   3de graad ASO, TSO, KSO

4   4   4   Extra jaar ASO, TSO, KSO, of 
BSO of specialisatie BSO

Hogeschool
5   5B  5   HBO5
6   5B  5   Professionele bachelor
7   5B? 5?  Master (of arts of zo?)

Universiteit
6   5A  6   Academische bachelor
7   5A  7   Master
8   6   8   Doctoraat
__

A slash denotes that the scale does not have a level for the end of that grade.

I can't get my head around masters in hogescholen. I can only find information 
about master of arts and don't know for sure at what level those are.

So for example tagging a secondary school without BSO or extra years would be:
vks:level=4
isced:level=2;3

One with ASO, TSO, KSO and BSO, with or without specialisation:
vks:level=2;3;4
isced:level=2;3;4

One with only BSO without specialisation year:
vks:level=2;3
isced:level=2;3

With specialisation:
vks:level=2;3;4
isced:level=2;3;4

[1] http://vlaamsekwalificatiestructuur.be/wat-is-vks/kwalificatieniveaus/
[2] 
http://gpseducation.oecd.org/Content/MapOfEducationSystem/BEL/BEL_1997_EN.pdf 
(http://gpseducation.oecd.org/Content/MapOfEducationSystem/BEL/BEL_1997_LL.pdf 
in Dutch for Flanders)

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] University tagging

[Marc Gemis]

This could be added to the BENELUX preset for JOSM if you want. Just
let me know when you agree on the tagging. Or add it yourself to
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets/BENELUX   :-)

regards

m

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Ruben Maes  wrote:
> Thursday 21 January 2016 12:57:09, Ben Laenen:
>> After some more googling, this site has a perfect overview of all the levels
>> in Flanders:
>>
>> http://vlaamsekwalificatiestructuur.be/wat-is-vks/kwalificatieniveaus/
>
> Aha, so would we also want a vks:level tag? Or just apply ISCED levels?
>
> I tried to figure it all out based on [1] and [2]. ([2] applies ISCED 1997 to 
> our Flemish structure, but we're mapping ISCED 2011. Wikipedia provides a 
> comparison of those two schemes.) This becomes:
> __
>
> VKS 19972011Name
> Basischool
> /   0   0   Kleuteronderwijs
> 1   1   1   Lager onderwijs
>
> Middelbare school
> /   2   2   1ste graad secundair onderwijs
>
> 2   /   /   2de graad BSO
> /   /   /   2de graad ASO, TSO, KSO
>
> 3   3   3   3de graad BSO; deeltijds 
> beroepssecundair onderwijs
> 4   3   3   3de graad ASO, TSO, KSO
>
> 4   4   4   Extra jaar ASO, TSO, KSO, of 
> BSO of specialisatie BSO
>
> Hogeschool
> 5   5B  5   HBO5
> 6   5B  5   Professionele bachelor
> 7   5B? 5?  Master (of arts of zo?)
>
> Universiteit
> 6   5A  6   Academische bachelor
> 7   5A  7   Master
> 8   6   8   Doctoraat
> __
>
> A slash denotes that the scale does not have a level for the end of that 
> grade.
>
> I can't get my head around masters in hogescholen. I can only find 
> information about master of arts and don't know for sure at what level those 
> are.
>
> So for example tagging a secondary school without BSO or extra years would be:
> vks:level=4
> isced:level=2;3
>
> One with ASO, TSO, KSO and BSO, with or without specialisation:
> vks:level=2;3;4
> isced:level=2;3;4
>
> One with only BSO without specialisation year:
> vks:level=2;3
> isced:level=2;3
>
> With specialisation:
> vks:level=2;3;4
> isced:level=2;3;4
>
> [1] http://vlaamsekwalificatiestructuur.be/wat-is-vks/kwalificatieniveaus/
> [2] 
> http://gpseducation.oecd.org/Content/MapOfEducationSystem/BEL/BEL_1997_EN.pdf 
> (http://gpseducation.oecd.org/Content/MapOfEducationSystem/BEL/BEL_1997_LL.pdf
>  in Dutch for Flanders)
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] University tagging

[Marc Gemis]

you could use the site-relation for that.

You might also search the archives of the GB mailing list. Last year
there was a discussion on how one could properly map a university with
many buildings & sites. This might give some inspiration.

Or currently they have a similar discussion on schools with several
buildings, or several schools in 1 building. No need to reinvent the
wheel.

As for the preset, I cannot automatically concatenate values into 1.
So we need to define a couple of presets for combination that occurs
often. Eg. university. basisschool, lager + hoger middelbaar. For each
of those presents we can add both the vks:level and isced:level tags.

m

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 5:41 PM, Ruben Maes  wrote:
> Thursday 21 January 2016 15:51:44, Marc Gemis:
>> This could be added to the BENELUX preset for JOSM if you want. Just
>> let me know when you agree on the tagging. Or add it yourself to
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets/BENELUX   :-)
>
> That would be great, thanks :)
>
> I added my analysis of the VKS and ISCED levels to the wiki page, so that 
> people looking for it on the wiki can find it.
>
> While making the examples I started wondering where to put those level tags 
> for universities, or other schools with lots of campuses. Would it be 
> feasible to make a relation for the university or is that too 
> collection-like? Or repeat the tags for each campus, but then we would have 
> to know for each location what levels are done there (it may be that e.g. 
> bachelor students never have to enter specific buildings).
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] University tagging

[Ruben Maes]

Thursday 21 January 2016 15:51:44, Marc Gemis:
> This could be added to the BENELUX preset for JOSM if you want. Just
> let me know when you agree on the tagging. Or add it yourself to
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets/BENELUX   :-)

That would be great, thanks :)

I added my analysis of the VKS and ISCED levels to the wiki page, so that 
people looking for it on the wiki can find it.

While making the examples I started wondering where to put those level tags for 
universities, or other schools with lots of campuses. Would it be feasible to 
make a relation for the university or is that too collection-like? Or repeat 
the tags for each campus, but then we would have to know for each location what 
levels are done there (it may be that e.g. bachelor students never have to 
enter specific buildings).

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