Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Marc Gemis]

Glenn has just done 1 town. Yesterday I started using his tool to see
how it works on a Mac.

IMHO  We can't do this on a large scale yet, since the procedure is
not yet approved by the import mailing list.
Wonder who is going to be brave enough this time to try it.

m.


On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 8:12 AM, joost schouppe
 wrote:
> How about we set up a meeting to learn how to use the import tool? Would be
> quite useful for me, and probably more people.
>
>
> 2016-01-21 12:46 GMT+01:00 Ruben Maes :
>>
>> Thursday 21 January 2016 08:38:46, joost schouppe:
>> > Come to think of it, a physical school might have several associated
>> > schools from this CSV file. For example if it is a campus, but also when
>> > for some reason the building users can convince the Flemish
>> > administration
>> > that they are more than one organization. So your data model should
>> > allow
>> > for more than one set of ID's and names.
>>
>> That's right. I know a secondary school that's officially 3 schools: one
>> for the 1st grade, one for the 2nd and 3rd grade ASO, and one for the 2nd
>> and 3rd grade BSO and TSO. Though in practice they operate as one school
>> (same name, same buildings, same timetable, same teachers), they each have
>> their own headmaster.
>>
>> It's currently mapped as a single school.
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Glenn Plas]

On 22-01-16 09:19, Marc Gemis wrote:
> Glenn has just done 1 town. Yesterday I started using his tool to see
> how it works on a Mac.

Actually, it's not 1 town, it's an area : Stekene, Kemzeke, Klein-Sinaai
and everything in between.

> IMHO  We can't do this on a large scale yet, since the procedure is
> not yet approved by the import mailing list.

We can't do this automated, we just need to make a good case for it.

> Wonder who is going to be brave enough this time to try it.

I will write an extensive blog post on this.  It's semi-automated and
human reviewed, it should not be a big problem.  We need to merge the
set, not do a flat import of it, hence the manual work.

Glenn



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Ruben Maes]

Thursday 21 January 2016 08:38:46, joost schouppe:
> Come to think of it, a physical school might have several associated
> schools from this CSV file. For example if it is a campus, but also when
> for some reason the building users can convince the Flemish administration
> that they are more than one organization. So your data model should allow
> for more than one set of ID's and names.

That's right. I know a secondary school that's officially 3 schools: one for 
the 1st grade, one for the 2nd and 3rd grade ASO, and one for the 2nd and 3rd 
grade BSO and TSO. Though in practice they operate as one school (same name, 
same buildings, same timetable, same teachers), they each have their own 
headmaster.

It's currently mapped as a single school.

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Glenn Plas]

On 21-01-16 10:37, Marc Gemis wrote:
> Glenn,
> thanks a lot for the hard work and the explanation. It looks very promising !
> If you want a beta tester on OSX, feel free to contact me

It's been great to look at GRB data and compair. Sounds great to test it
on OSX, I'll publish the tool soon.
> 
> Any idea how the "roofs" attached to a building look like after
> importing ? On the GRB images you see them as areas filled with
> diagonal lines.

Not always, those diagonal lines can also be a building with an entrance
underneath.  This comes from the Gba shapes, roof's will actually share
nodes (in the raw data) with buildings from Gbg shapes.

But using the simplify way plugin, chances are the nodes don't all
matchup.  You will however get a warning in JOSM validator.  Then it's a
simply checking out the building and perhaps join and/or merge the
nodes, usually trivial work.

I've imported the roofs in half hour, but there is a lot in the Gba
shapes that we can't directly import, some strange structures but also,
the 'verdieping' , aka raised buildings needs human attention.  Usually
you need to do some mods or compromise.

Check here, no real visual difference in standard osm style.  But the
meta data is there.

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/dSY

Only about 23% of Gba data is directly usable, notably 'roof'

My tool support Gba/Gbg/Knw shapes at the moment.

Glenn


> Just curious whether they are part of the building or are separate 
> "buildings".
> 
> m
> 
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Glenn Plas  wrote:
 Then you can use Shift to select 2 buildings, move finger to 't' and
 poof, done.
>>
>> http://aptum.bitless.be/movies/stek12.avi
>>
>> You don't even need to select those 2 buildings in most cases:
>>
>> - run the validator
>> - navigate to and select warnings like 'crossing buildings', 'building
>> inside building'.
>> - Now the offenders are both already selected. You can merge after
>> visually confirming that it's 'the same building'.  Sometimes it's not
>> selecting the correct ones, but adjacent buildings.
>> - press replace geometry hotkey
>> - fix any merge warnings.
>>
>> common ones are : building=yes on original vs. building=shed on GRB import.
>>
>> Any existing tag conflict will throw another dialogue up, so it helps to
>> rename in advance, for example, on size, anything smaller than 10m2 is a
>> shed (=this kind of equals how GRB works).  So when both versions have
>> building=shed, you will not get the dialogue and are able to select the
>> next validator issue.
>>
>> The validator is a real tool here, not just something to use at the end,
>> it's a speed booster too.
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Glenn Plas]

On 21-01-16 08:59, Jo wrote:
> Wow, that's great. I didn't realise you were that far along already.

Yeah, I was motivated but documenting all will probably take twice the
time, there are many things to account for and keep in mind, but I think
the method I used is pretty fast, it took me 3 weeks to do stekene and
it's not small.

> 
> Regarding the Replace Geometry tool. I think it makes sense to remap it
> to Shift-T.

I'll answer this with telling you my remap: "CTRL-shift-A"

Shift-T is what the terracing tools use to merge address nodes into ways.

Which I actually use a lot too during imports of AGIV, but right now,
the tool Sander wrote will become an even greater Q/A tool as it is very
wel suited to solve special addressing cases (1 building, 2 streets,
multiple housenumbers, errors in CRAB, they all float to the surface
now) after importing GRB (with address data).

I try to NOT to use GRB addresseses on any buildings that are special
and need human attention, with Sander's tool, it will detect missing
numbers and guide the editor to the solution.

Glenn


> 
> Then you can use Shift to select 2 buildings, move finger to 't' and
> poof, done.



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Glenn Plas]

>> Then you can use Shift to select 2 buildings, move finger to 't' and
>> poof, done.

http://aptum.bitless.be/movies/stek12.avi

You don't even need to select those 2 buildings in most cases:

- run the validator
- navigate to and select warnings like 'crossing buildings', 'building
inside building'.
- Now the offenders are both already selected. You can merge after
visually confirming that it's 'the same building'.  Sometimes it's not
selecting the correct ones, but adjacent buildings.
- press replace geometry hotkey
- fix any merge warnings.

common ones are : building=yes on original vs. building=shed on GRB import.

Any existing tag conflict will throw another dialogue up, so it helps to
rename in advance, for example, on size, anything smaller than 10m2 is a
shed (=this kind of equals how GRB works).  So when both versions have
building=shed, you will not get the dialogue and are able to select the
next validator issue.

The validator is a real tool here, not just something to use at the end,
it's a speed booster too.

Glenn




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Marc Gemis]

Glenn,
thanks a lot for the hard work and the explanation. It looks very promising !
If you want a beta tester on OSX, feel free to contact me

Any idea how the "roofs" attached to a building look like after
importing ? On the GRB images you see them as areas filled with
diagonal lines.
Just curious whether they are part of the building or are separate "buildings".

m

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Glenn Plas  wrote:
>>> Then you can use Shift to select 2 buildings, move finger to 't' and
>>> poof, done.
>
> http://aptum.bitless.be/movies/stek12.avi
>
> You don't even need to select those 2 buildings in most cases:
>
> - run the validator
> - navigate to and select warnings like 'crossing buildings', 'building
> inside building'.
> - Now the offenders are both already selected. You can merge after
> visually confirming that it's 'the same building'.  Sometimes it's not
> selecting the correct ones, but adjacent buildings.
> - press replace geometry hotkey
> - fix any merge warnings.
>
> common ones are : building=yes on original vs. building=shed on GRB import.
>
> Any existing tag conflict will throw another dialogue up, so it helps to
> rename in advance, for example, on size, anything smaller than 10m2 is a
> shed (=this kind of equals how GRB works).  So when both versions have
> building=shed, you will not get the dialogue and are able to select the
> next validator issue.
>
> The validator is a real tool here, not just something to use at the end,
> it's a speed booster too.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Jo]

Marc,

You mean the tool for the BAG import? Well they must have rewritten it by
now, as they are in 'maintenance' mode, nowadays. I haven't looked into it
very deeply, it's simply something that occurred to me on their
'nieuwjaarsborrel'. They already have a tool that works and it could work
for us as well if we can feed it our data.

Jo


2016-01-21 9:25 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :

> You know that they usually threw away any data that was already there
> ? I don't know whether the tool allowed you to do it better.
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:38 AM, Jo  wrote:
> > About that CRAB import. In The Netherlands they already created a tool to
> > assist with that for their BAG import. I think we should look into
> reusing
> > that, adapted to the data we have available.
> >
> > Polyglot
> >
> > 2016-01-21 5:35 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Jasper Michels <
> jaspermich...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It was mentioned that there exist free datasets for the flemish part.
> >>> (and cant we import the building outlines of Agiv?)
> >>
> >>
> >> At this moment someone is working on converting the GRB data into
> >> something that can be "easily" imported.
> >>
> >> I've put "easily" between quotes, because it will still be a lot of work
> >> in areas where there are already buildings. The reason is that we
> should try
> >> to keep the history and data of the existing buildings. With data I
> mean POI
> >> info, heritage information, house name, 3D, building type, etc. Even
> when
> >> there is no information, it is polite to keep the names of the previous
> >> mappers in the history of the OSM way. I do not like an approach where
> all
> >> existing data is deleted.
> >>
> >> I have been replacing old AND data and buildings that I had traced from
> >> Bing imagery with data based on AGIV aerial images and recently with GRB
> >> data. It is labor intensive.
> >>
> >> The scenario  that I follow is
> >>
> >> * move the old house out of the way
> >> * redraw based on GRB
> >> * replace geometry of old building with new (from utilsplugin2). this
> >> keeps the history
> >> * drop source=AND
> >> * add building type based on aerial images and add address (address from
> >> AGIV) using housenumbertool
> >>
> >> Sometimes (with a lot of connected houses), I just try to reshape the
> old
> >> building way, because moving all houses out of the way is more
> difficult.
> >>
> >> With an import you do not have to do the drawing, but you still need to
> do
> >> the replace geometry. The other steps that you have to perform depends
> on
> >> the import data: is the building type correct ? is the address data
> already
> >> merged ?
> >>
> >> Since this is so much work to correct, it's a pitty to see that some
> power
> >> mappers are rushing through the current address data and only add rough
> >> approximations of the buildings. L-shaped buildings become rectangles,
> in
> >> terraces half of the buildings are ignored. Correcting this afterwards,
> >> might take more time than trying to do it correctly the first time
> around.
> >>
> >> In conclusion, you can already draw the buildings based on GRB now. No
> >> need to wait until the import is ready. For most buildings this is not
> too
> >> difficult. Churches and similar buildings with a lot of extrusions
> might be
> >> left until the import data is ready.
> >>
> >> just my .5 cents
> >>
> >> regards
> >>
> >> m
> >>
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> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Jo]

Wow, that's great. I didn't realise you were that far along already.

Regarding the Replace Geometry tool. I think it makes sense to remap it to
Shift-T.

Then you can use Shift to select 2 buildings, move finger to 't' and poof,
done.

Jo

2016-01-21 9:52 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas :

> Since I've now written a tool to do this (and tested it), guess I have
> to react now :)
>
> On 21-01-16 05:38, Jo wrote:
> > About that CRAB import. In The Netherlands they already created a tool
> > to assist with that for their BAG import. I think we should look into
> > reusing that, adapted to the data we have available.
>
> We can't use that tool.  If you take a look at the BAG import data, it's
> not really well done, in Holland most of the addressing is done on
> nodes, it's not merged into the building, which is what we do here, and
> it has many advantages to do it on the way.  Also, using that tool will
> actually cause problems at the border, since houses (in Stekene) are
> aparantly in both BAG and GRB when they are visible from Belgium.  I
> made sure to be able to safeguard both BAG and GRB data for those.
>
> I've written a tool to import GRB shapefiles and merge address data that
> comes with it.  I still need to write a blog post on all that research,
> I'm lacking some time.
>
> Basically, we need to import the shape file in JOSM, save it as an osm
> (xml). and then run it through the (CLI) script to adapt the keys/tag's
> to osm and to merge basic address information to the node.  There are
> .DBF (yes, that will be dbase ) files included when getting a full
> export, but that isn't perfect, there are still issues with both GRB
> addresses and CRAB, but it's a great way to not having to do it manually.
>
> We have introduced a set of tags, after some discussion with Sander, I
> believe is enough to start with.   See
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/384159892#map=19/51.20779/4.07462
>
> Stekene has been the testing grounds for the import, since it was quite
> the empty place.
>
> >
> > At this moment someone is working on converting the GRB data into
> > something that can be "easily" imported.
> >
> > I've put "easily" between quotes, because it will still be a lot of
> > work in areas where there are already buildings. The reason is that
> > we should try to keep the history and data of the existing
> > buildings. With data I mean POI info, heritage information, house
> > name, 3D, building type, etc. Even when there is no information, it
> > is polite to keep the names of the previous mappers in the history
> > of the OSM way. I do not like an approach where all existing data is
> > deleted.
>
>
> This is to be done with JOSM plugins, "Replace geometry" . that plugin
> is the whole center of the solution.  This way you get to keep the
> history too.
>
> >
> > I have been replacing old AND data and buildings that I had traced
> > from Bing imagery with data based on AGIV aerial images and recently
> > with GRB data. It is labor intensive.
>
> Yes, but this source part is automated well.
>
> >
> > The scenario  that I follow is
> >
> > * move the old house out of the way
> > * redraw based on GRB
> > * replace geometry of old building with new (from utilsplugin2).
> > this keeps the history
> > * drop source=AND
> > * add building type based on aerial images and add address (address
> > from AGIV) using housenumbertool
>
> The way to do it is :
>
> -preparse the shape file and save as xml (osm) in JOSM
> -  to adapt keys add addressing, run the tool, it will create the
> correct tags.
> -use 2 layers, copy/paste from 1 layer to the existing layers (just
> overlay)
> -run the validator, fix the warnings first, select crossing buildings,
> and press CTRL-Shift-G (Replace geometry).  Done!
> - Fix other warnings (there are plenty, but fixable)
>
> Building type is automated.
>
> >
> > Sometimes (with a lot of connected houses), I just try to reshape
> > the old building way, because moving all houses out of the way is
> > more difficult.
> >
> > With an import you do not have to do the drawing, but you still need
> > to do the replace geometry. The other steps that you have to perform
> > depends on the import data: is the building type correct ? is the
> > address data already merged ?
> >
> > Since this is so much work to correct, it's a pitty to see that some
> > power mappers are rushing through the current address data and only
> > add rough approximations of the buildings. L-shaped buildings become
> > rectangles, in terraces half of the buildings are ignored.
> > Correcting this afterwards, might take more time than trying to do
> > it correctly the first time around.
>
> Drawing buildings at the moment is indeed making it harder, but it's a
> very good check for every building.
>
> Here's a text dump of what the tool does:
>
> > 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Marc Gemis]

You know that they usually threw away any data that was already there
? I don't know whether the tool allowed you to do it better.

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:38 AM, Jo  wrote:
> About that CRAB import. In The Netherlands they already created a tool to
> assist with that for their BAG import. I think we should look into reusing
> that, adapted to the data we have available.
>
> Polyglot
>
> 2016-01-21 5:35 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Jasper Michels 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It was mentioned that there exist free datasets for the flemish part.
>>> (and cant we import the building outlines of Agiv?)
>>
>>
>> At this moment someone is working on converting the GRB data into
>> something that can be "easily" imported.
>>
>> I've put "easily" between quotes, because it will still be a lot of work
>> in areas where there are already buildings. The reason is that we should try
>> to keep the history and data of the existing buildings. With data I mean POI
>> info, heritage information, house name, 3D, building type, etc. Even when
>> there is no information, it is polite to keep the names of the previous
>> mappers in the history of the OSM way. I do not like an approach where all
>> existing data is deleted.
>>
>> I have been replacing old AND data and buildings that I had traced from
>> Bing imagery with data based on AGIV aerial images and recently with GRB
>> data. It is labor intensive.
>>
>> The scenario  that I follow is
>>
>> * move the old house out of the way
>> * redraw based on GRB
>> * replace geometry of old building with new (from utilsplugin2). this
>> keeps the history
>> * drop source=AND
>> * add building type based on aerial images and add address (address from
>> AGIV) using housenumbertool
>>
>> Sometimes (with a lot of connected houses), I just try to reshape the old
>> building way, because moving all houses out of the way is more difficult.
>>
>> With an import you do not have to do the drawing, but you still need to do
>> the replace geometry. The other steps that you have to perform depends on
>> the import data: is the building type correct ? is the address data already
>> merged ?
>>
>> Since this is so much work to correct, it's a pitty to see that some power
>> mappers are rushing through the current address data and only add rough
>> approximations of the buildings. L-shaped buildings become rectangles, in
>> terraces half of the buildings are ignored. Correcting this afterwards,
>> might take more time than trying to do it correctly the first time around.
>>
>> In conclusion, you can already draw the buildings based on GRB now. No
>> need to wait until the import is ready. For most buildings this is not too
>> difficult. Churches and similar buildings with a lot of extrusions might be
>> left until the import data is ready.
>>
>> just my .5 cents
>>
>> regards
>>
>> m
>>
>> ___
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Glenn Plas]

Since I've now written a tool to do this (and tested it), guess I have
to react now :)

On 21-01-16 05:38, Jo wrote:
> About that CRAB import. In The Netherlands they already created a tool
> to assist with that for their BAG import. I think we should look into
> reusing that, adapted to the data we have available.

We can't use that tool.  If you take a look at the BAG import data, it's
not really well done, in Holland most of the addressing is done on
nodes, it's not merged into the building, which is what we do here, and
it has many advantages to do it on the way.  Also, using that tool will
actually cause problems at the border, since houses (in Stekene) are
aparantly in both BAG and GRB when they are visible from Belgium.  I
made sure to be able to safeguard both BAG and GRB data for those.

I've written a tool to import GRB shapefiles and merge address data that
comes with it.  I still need to write a blog post on all that research,
I'm lacking some time.

Basically, we need to import the shape file in JOSM, save it as an osm
(xml). and then run it through the (CLI) script to adapt the keys/tag's
to osm and to merge basic address information to the node.  There are
.DBF (yes, that will be dbase ) files included when getting a full
export, but that isn't perfect, there are still issues with both GRB
addresses and CRAB, but it's a great way to not having to do it manually.

We have introduced a set of tags, after some discussion with Sander, I
believe is enough to start with.   See
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/384159892#map=19/51.20779/4.07462

Stekene has been the testing grounds for the import, since it was quite
the empty place.

> 
> At this moment someone is working on converting the GRB data into
> something that can be "easily" imported.
> 
> I've put "easily" between quotes, because it will still be a lot of
> work in areas where there are already buildings. The reason is that
> we should try to keep the history and data of the existing
> buildings. With data I mean POI info, heritage information, house
> name, 3D, building type, etc. Even when there is no information, it
> is polite to keep the names of the previous mappers in the history
> of the OSM way. I do not like an approach where all existing data is
> deleted.


This is to be done with JOSM plugins, "Replace geometry" . that plugin
is the whole center of the solution.  This way you get to keep the
history too.

> 
> I have been replacing old AND data and buildings that I had traced
> from Bing imagery with data based on AGIV aerial images and recently
> with GRB data. It is labor intensive.

Yes, but this source part is automated well.

> 
> The scenario  that I follow is
> 
> * move the old house out of the way
> * redraw based on GRB
> * replace geometry of old building with new (from utilsplugin2).
> this keeps the history
> * drop source=AND
> * add building type based on aerial images and add address (address
> from AGIV) using housenumbertool

The way to do it is :

-preparse the shape file and save as xml (osm) in JOSM
-  to adapt keys add addressing, run the tool, it will create the
correct tags.
-use 2 layers, copy/paste from 1 layer to the existing layers (just overlay)
-run the validator, fix the warnings first, select crossing buildings,
and press CTRL-Shift-G (Replace geometry).  Done!
- Fix other warnings (there are plenty, but fixable)

Building type is automated.

> 
> Sometimes (with a lot of connected houses), I just try to reshape
> the old building way, because moving all houses out of the way is
> more difficult.
> 
> With an import you do not have to do the drawing, but you still need
> to do the replace geometry. The other steps that you have to perform
> depends on the import data: is the building type correct ? is the
> address data already merged ?
> 
> Since this is so much work to correct, it's a pitty to see that some
> power mappers are rushing through the current address data and only
> add rough approximations of the buildings. L-shaped buildings become
> rectangles, in terraces half of the buildings are ignored.
> Correcting this afterwards, might take more time than trying to do
> it correctly the first time around.

Drawing buildings at the moment is indeed making it harder, but it's a
very good check for every building.

Here's a text dump of what the tool does:

> glenn@slicky:~/Downloads/stekene/Shapefile$ ./grb2osm.php -f 
> TblAdpAdr46024B500.dbf,TblGbgAdr46024B500.dbf -i stekkie.xml -o stek.osm
> 2016-01-21 08:47:09 [23849]:[3]notic - [OsmTool::open_db] - Start
> 2016-01-21 08:47:09 [23849]:[2]info  - [OsmTool::open_db] - Trying to open 
> DBase DB TblAdpAdr46024B500.dbf
> 2016-01-21 08:47:09 [23849]:[2]info  - [OsmTool::open_db] - Opened 
> TblAdpAdr46024B500.dbf
> 2016-01-21 08:47:09 [23849]:[3]notic - [OsmTool::open_db] - Reading records...
> 2016-01-21 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[joost schouppe]

How about we set up a meeting to learn how to use the import tool? Would be
quite useful for me, and probably more people.


2016-01-21 12:46 GMT+01:00 Ruben Maes :

> Thursday 21 January 2016 08:38:46, joost schouppe:
> > Come to think of it, a physical school might have several associated
> > schools from this CSV file. For example if it is a campus, but also when
> > for some reason the building users can convince the Flemish
> administration
> > that they are more than one organization. So your data model should allow
> > for more than one set of ID's and names.
>
> That's right. I know a secondary school that's officially 3 schools: one
> for the 1st grade, one for the 2nd and 3rd grade ASO, and one for the 2nd
> and 3rd grade BSO and TSO. Though in practice they operate as one school
> (same name, same buildings, same timetable, same teachers), they each have
> their own headmaster.
>
> It's currently mapped as a single school.
>
> --
> This message is OpenPGP signed.
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>


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:33 PM, Jo  wrote:
> I know all the schools in those csv files have an id that can be set in ref,
> but that already doesn't work in Wallonia or Brussels.
>

In the UK they use ref:edubase for the reference. Since the ref cannot
be verified in the field, we might do something similar with ref:xxx
where xxx is different for the 3 regions.

m

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Jo]

About that CRAB import. In The Netherlands they already created a tool to
assist with that for their BAG import. I think we should look into reusing
that, adapted to the data we have available.

Polyglot

2016-01-21 5:35 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :

>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Jasper Michels 
> wrote:
>
>> It was mentioned that there exist free datasets for the flemish part.
>> (and cant we import the building outlines of Agiv?)
>>
>
> At this moment someone is working on converting the GRB data into
> something that can be "easily" imported.
>
> I've put "easily" between quotes, because it will still be a lot of work
> in areas where there are already buildings. The reason is that we should
> try to keep the history and data of the existing buildings. With data I
> mean POI info, heritage information, house name, 3D, building type, etc.
> Even when there is no information, it is polite to keep the names of the
> previous mappers in the history of the OSM way. I do not like an approach
> where all existing data is deleted.
>
> I have been replacing old AND data and buildings that I had traced from
> Bing imagery with data based on AGIV aerial images and recently with GRB
> data. It is labor intensive.
>
> The scenario  that I follow is
>
> * move the old house out of the way
> * redraw based on GRB
> * replace geometry of old building with new (from utilsplugin2). this
> keeps the history
> * drop source=AND
> * add building type based on aerial images and add address (address from
> AGIV) using housenumbertool
>
> Sometimes (with a lot of connected houses), I just try to reshape the old
> building way, because moving all houses out of the way is more difficult.
>
> With an import you do not have to do the drawing, but you still need to do
> the replace geometry. The other steps that you have to perform depends on
> the import data: is the building type correct ? is the address data already
> merged ?
>
> Since this is so much work to correct, it's a pitty to see that some power
> mappers are rushing through the current address data and only add rough
> approximations of the buildings. L-shaped buildings become rectangles, in
> terraces half of the buildings are ignored. Correcting this afterwards,
> might take more time than trying to do it correctly the first time around.
>
> In conclusion, you can already draw the buildings based on GRB now. No
> need to wait until the import is ready. For most buildings this is not too
> difficult. Churches and similar buildings with a lot of extrusions might be
> left until the import data is ready.
>
> just my .5 cents
>
> regards
>
> m
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Jasper Michels 
wrote:

> It was mentioned that there exist free datasets for the flemish part. (and
> cant we import the building outlines of Agiv?)
>

At this moment someone is working on converting the GRB data into something
that can be "easily" imported.

I've put "easily" between quotes, because it will still be a lot of work in
areas where there are already buildings. The reason is that we should try
to keep the history and data of the existing buildings. With data I mean
POI info, heritage information, house name, 3D, building type, etc. Even
when there is no information, it is polite to keep the names of the
previous mappers in the history of the OSM way. I do not like an approach
where all existing data is deleted.

I have been replacing old AND data and buildings that I had traced from
Bing imagery with data based on AGIV aerial images and recently with GRB
data. It is labor intensive.

The scenario  that I follow is

* move the old house out of the way
* redraw based on GRB
* replace geometry of old building with new (from utilsplugin2). this keeps
the history
* drop source=AND
* add building type based on aerial images and add address (address from
AGIV) using housenumbertool

Sometimes (with a lot of connected houses), I just try to reshape the old
building way, because moving all houses out of the way is more difficult.

With an import you do not have to do the drawing, but you still need to do
the replace geometry. The other steps that you have to perform depends on
the import data: is the building type correct ? is the address data already
merged ?

Since this is so much work to correct, it's a pitty to see that some power
mappers are rushing through the current address data and only add rough
approximations of the buildings. L-shaped buildings become rectangles, in
terraces half of the buildings are ignored. Correcting this afterwards,
might take more time than trying to do it correctly the first time around.

In conclusion, you can already draw the buildings based on GRB now. No need
to wait until the import is ready. For most buildings this is not too
difficult. Churches and similar buildings with a lot of extrusions might be
left until the import data is ready.

just my .5 cents

regards

m
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[joost schouppe]

Come to think of it, a physical school might have several associated
schools from this CSV file. For example if it is a campus, but also when
for some reason the building users can convince the Flemish administration
that they are more than one organization. So your data model should allow
for more than one set of ID's and names.
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[joost schouppe]

On those ID's for Flemish schools

There are two fields: schoolnummer and vestigingsnummer. The schoolnummer
identifies a cluster of schools, which share certain administrative
functions. The vestigingsnummer is (normally) the physical school. To
properly identify a school, you need both.
When we (at Stad Antwerpen) use this kind of data, we write it as
schoolnummer_vestigingsnummer. I would suggest using this kind of way to
wrate the number.

To further complicate things, the vestigingsnummer exist in two different
formats:
- always consecutive, 1-2-3-4...
- historically stable, so 1-2-4 is possible
Only the second one is a true identifier, as this always stays the same. In
the first format, when school 3 closes, the ID of number 4 becomes 3. In
the second one, number 4 will stay number 4. As far as I can tell from the
data you pointed out, they use the historically stable version, which is
good.

2016-01-20 21:33 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> For Flanders it is trivially simple to download data as CSV from this site:
>
> http://data-onderwijs.vlaanderen.be/onderwijsaanbod
>
> So now I was considering to write some scripts to create Wikidata entries
> for those, then in turn create an .OSM file with the relevant data
> converted into tags.
>
> At that point we would have a file containing nodes. I would create 1 file
> per 'level'.
>
> From then on, the wikidata tags can be used as identifiers to keep track
> of our progress.
>
> I know all the schools in those csv files have an id that can be set in
> ref, but that already doesn't work in Wallonia or Brussels.
>
> Of course, we should also set an operator:wikidata, if we can figure it
> out. And I think it would be nice if we could add coordinates to the
> wikidata items as well. For schools like Sint-Jozef or Sancta-Maria we
> could have a dedication:wikidata as well, but that's probably not utterly
> important.
>
> As an example, I did that here:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/160468337
>
> Please also have a look at the reference for the coordinate location:
>
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q22122652
>
> Polyglot
>
> 2016-01-20 21:16 GMT+01:00 Julien Minet :
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm ready to contribute from time to time for schools in the province of
>> Luxembourg! I've just added my unsername on the wiki page.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Julien
>>
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Jasper Michels]

It was mentioned that there exist free datasets for the flemish part. (and
cant we import the building outlines of Agiv?)

Is it possible to work out, how to effectively use these sets?

I would think its demotivating to do all work  manually now in this
Quarterly Project,
when it could (to some limit) be imported or partly automised.


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2016-01-20 13:25 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :

> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Jakka  wrote:
> > Is it allowed to use the same key in it self ? like the example
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/BE_Quarterly_Projects
> > amenity=parking in amenity=school (area) and the key "leisure" within
> > "amenity" (or vice versa ??)
>
> that's no problem.
> but I would tag the parking and leisures as private (in most cases)
>
> m.
>
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[OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Bruno Veyckemans]

[EN] Hi,

As you know, we launched the first BE Quarterly Project in a previous
thread, aiming to map every school in Belgium during the first quarter of
2016... The first reactions were great, but it seems we need more
implication of Belgian mappers to make it really happen !

The first thing to do is writing a good documentation here, together:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/BE_Quarterly_Projects

I just added a new part about education levels, please check it, add
comments if you have and fill the blanks...

The good news: UK mapper Harry Wood has already contributed and developped
a filter to track OSM's changes for schools in Belgium:
http://harrywood.dev.openstreetmap.org/diffreader/schools/?filter=belgium

We also need communication about this project (a tweet to @osm_be followers
would be great, maybe also on the blog ?). And use the tag #OSM_BEschools
to your changeset ;-)

I think we need to be at least 15-20 to make something nice and start the
whole process ! (add your name in the section Who's involved?)

Thanks !

Bruno

-

[FR] Bonjour à tous,

Comme vous le savez, nous avons lancé le projet "BE Quarterly Project" dans
un sujet précédent, avec pour but de mettre les cartes de Belgique sur OSM
durant ce premier trimestre. Les réactions ont été enthousiastes, mais nous
avons clairement besoin de plus d'implication de la communauté OSM de
Belgique pour que ça prenne forme !

La première étape consiste à établir une documentation claire ici:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/BE_Quarterly_Projects

Je viens d'y ajouter un tableau consacré aux niveaux d'éducation, je compte
sur vous pour vérifier, commenter et remplir les blancs !

Bonne nouvelle: le mapper britannique Harry Wood a adapté son outil en
ajoutant un filtre "belge" rien que pour nous:
http://harrywood.dev.openstreetmap.org/diffreader/schools/?filter=belgium

On a aussi besoin de faire connaître le projet... pensez à tweeter et à
ajouter le tag #OSM_BEschools à votre changeset ;-)
Je pense qu'on a besoin d'être au moins 15-20 pour enclencher la machine,
que ce premier défi ressemble à quelque chose et ne tourne pas au fiasco...
on compte sur votre aide !

Bruno

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Jakka]

Is it allowed to use the same key in it self ? like the example
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/BE_Quarterly_Projects
amenity=parking in amenity=school (area) and the key "leisure" within 
"amenity" (or vice versa ??)


Bruno Veyckemans schreef op 20/01/2016 om 12:10:

[EN] Hi,

As you know, we launched the first BE Quarterly Project in a previous
thread, aiming to map every school in Belgium during the first quarter
of 2016... The first reactions were great, but it seems we need more
implication of Belgian mappers to make it really happen !

The first thing to do is writing a good documentation here, together:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/BE_Quarterly_Projects

I just added a new part about education levels, please check it, add
comments if you have and fill the blanks...

The good news: UK mapper Harry Wood has already contributed and
developped a filter to track OSM's changes for schools in Belgium:
http://harrywood.dev.openstreetmap.org/diffreader/schools/?filter=belgium

We also need communication about this project (a tweet to @osm_be
followers would be great, maybe also on the blog ?). And use the tag
#OSM_BEschools to your changeset ;-)

I think we need to be at least 15-20 to make something nice and start
the whole process ! (add your name in the section Who's involved?)

Thanks !

Bruno

-

[FR] Bonjour à tous,

Comme vous le savez, nous avons lancé le projet "BE Quarterly Project"
dans un sujet précédent, avec pour but de mettre les cartes de Belgique
sur OSM durant ce premier trimestre. Les réactions ont été
enthousiastes, mais nous avons clairement besoin de plus d'implication
de la communauté OSM de Belgique pour que ça prenne forme !

La première étape consiste à établir une documentation claire ici:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/BE_Quarterly_Projects

Je viens d'y ajouter un tableau consacré aux niveaux d'éducation, je
compte sur vous pour vérifier, commenter et remplir les blancs !

Bonne nouvelle: le mapper britannique Harry Wood a adapté son outil en
ajoutant un filtre "belge" rien que pour nous:
http://harrywood.dev.openstreetmap.org/diffreader/schools/?filter=belgium

On a aussi besoin de faire connaître le projet... pensez à tweeter et à
ajouter le tag #OSM_BEschools à votre changeset ;-)
Je pense qu'on a besoin d'être au moins 15-20 pour enclencher la
machine, que ce premier défi ressemble à quelque chose et ne tourne pas
au fiasco... on compte sur votre aide !

Bruno

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] BE Quarterly Project (Schools) - Go !

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Jakka  wrote:
> Is it allowed to use the same key in it self ? like the example
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/BE_Quarterly_Projects
> amenity=parking in amenity=school (area) and the key "leisure" within
> "amenity" (or vice versa ??)

that's no problem.
but I would tag the parking and leisures as private (in most cases)

m.

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