Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Steven Clays]

You could combine 'vicinal_type' with 'vicinal_ref', but then again, in one
municipality everthing is on the signs as Baan, in the other it is Buurtweg
and in yet another it is even Chemin (even in Flanders). Good luck with
that...

Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 15:38 schreef Steven Clays :

> To make it even more complex: in Halle, I have seen signs with A12 on
> 'atlas roads' (instead of Buurtweg nr. 12) and F12 ('feitelijke weg nr. 12'
> - factual way).
>
> Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 15:33 schreef Marc Gemis :
>
>> Sometimes references contain language specific information. Some
>> substations have CAB 12 as reference. I assume CAB refers somehow to
>> Cabine, which would not have been there if we would live e.g. in
>> Russia.
>> The same with the 'E' / 'A' / 'N' used to indicate road nummers.
>>
>> We never put the name of the street in name:nl for other roads, why
>> would we do that for vicinal roads ?
>>
>> Another example that I want to map is:
>> https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2018/2018-09-22-Londerzeel/i-SndFGmx/A
>>
>> As a simple surveyor that does not want to look at ancient road
>> atlasses I thought of mapping this just as
>>
>> name=Pluimennest
>> alt_name=Merchtemscheweg
>> vicinal_ref=Voetweg 25
>>
>> If there is another simple method to map "Voetweg" and "25" we could
>> use that as well. But I assume that the signs sometimes do not
>> correspond to what the "Atlas" has.
>>
>> Note that Voetweg/Buurtweg is not always written as such. In Rumst
>> they use VW and BW followed by the number. This is much closer to the
>> usage of e.g. A12 (which we also do not write as Autoweg 12, nor as 12
>> with and extra designation or road type tag).
>>
>> m.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 3:20 PM Karel Adams  wrote:
>> >
>> > But - for as little as I am acquainted with this specific matter - I
>> should think language-related terms should never occur in a reference? I
>> would expect and indeed welcome them in a name tag, probably
>> language-specific like name:nl
>> >
>> > KA
>> >
>> > On 15/12/2018 14:13, Steven Clays wrote:
>> >
>> > Indeed, that's why. Actually, it is a good way to deal with the
>> sometimes blurry denominations on the signposts.
>> >
>> > Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 14:59 schreef Marc Gemis :
>> >>
>> >> I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
>> >> as well, not just 19.
>> >> I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
>> >> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:47 PM Ben Laenen 
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > One question I have: why are the words "chemin", "sentier",
>> "voetweg" etc. part of the vicinal_ref tag? Better just leave the number in
>> there, the type of road is in the vicinal_type tag.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ben
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 12:33 Steven Clays > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hello,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on
>> the discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also
>> proposed, seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are
>> restored and some pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
>> >> >> ___
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>> >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>> >> >
>> >> > ___
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>> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Steven Clays]

In the end, there is no legal distinction between a vicinal path and a
vicinal road. We might even choose to delete that vicinal_type tag. On the
other hand there is a lesser known vicinal_type =  particular 'Particulier
/ Bijzonder'.
For the vicinal_ref tag, there is indeed no straightforward way to choose
between french and dutch, and there are several denominations in dutch. I'd
happily accept the vicinal_ref tag as such.

Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 15:21 schreef Marc Gemis :

> I don't want to reconstuct the map from 1800, I want to map what I see
> on the sign.
> If I see a sign like
>
> https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2018/2018-10-07-Opdorp-Lippelobos/i-sFgCzRj
> ,
> I want to somehow map "Lippelooweg / Buurtweg 57" and "Buurtweg 58",
> regardless of what a map from 1800 says.
>
> m.
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 3:17 PM Ben Laenen  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 14:59 Marc Gemis  >>
> >> I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
> >> as well, not just 19.
> >> I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah but those words aren't very consistent in usage, do you take the
> French words for Flemish roads because the Atlas was made in French for
> that municipality? In the end there are only two types, a path and a road,
> and there's no difference in a path being a sentier, pad, voetpad or
> voetweg on one map from the 1800s.
> >
> > Also, if you want what's on the map, you'd need to have "Sentier n° 117"
> as well for example.
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > ___
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> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Marc Gemis]

Sometimes references contain language specific information. Some
substations have CAB 12 as reference. I assume CAB refers somehow to
Cabine, which would not have been there if we would live e.g. in
Russia.
The same with the 'E' / 'A' / 'N' used to indicate road nummers.

We never put the name of the street in name:nl for other roads, why
would we do that for vicinal roads ?

Another example that I want to map is:
https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2018/2018-09-22-Londerzeel/i-SndFGmx/A

As a simple surveyor that does not want to look at ancient road
atlasses I thought of mapping this just as

name=Pluimennest
alt_name=Merchtemscheweg
vicinal_ref=Voetweg 25

If there is another simple method to map "Voetweg" and "25" we could
use that as well. But I assume that the signs sometimes do not
correspond to what the "Atlas" has.

Note that Voetweg/Buurtweg is not always written as such. In Rumst
they use VW and BW followed by the number. This is much closer to the
usage of e.g. A12 (which we also do not write as Autoweg 12, nor as 12
with and extra designation or road type tag).

m.

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 3:20 PM Karel Adams  wrote:
>
> But - for as little as I am acquainted with this specific matter - I should 
> think language-related terms should never occur in a reference? I would 
> expect and indeed welcome them in a name tag, probably language-specific like 
> name:nl
>
> KA
>
> On 15/12/2018 14:13, Steven Clays wrote:
>
> Indeed, that's why. Actually, it is a good way to deal with the sometimes 
> blurry denominations on the signposts.
>
> Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 14:59 schreef Marc Gemis :
>>
>> I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
>> as well, not just 19.
>> I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
>> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:47 PM Ben Laenen  wrote:
>> >
>> > One question I have: why are the words "chemin", "sentier", "voetweg" etc. 
>> > part of the vicinal_ref tag? Better just leave the number in there, the 
>> > type of road is in the vicinal_type tag.
>> >
>> > Ben
>> >
>> > On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 12:33 Steven Clays > >>
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the 
>> >> discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also 
>> >> proposed, seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are 
>> >> restored and some pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome. 
>> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
>> >> ___
>> >> Talk-be mailing list
>> >> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Talk-be mailing list
>> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-be mailing list
>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Marc Gemis]

I don't want to reconstuct the map from 1800, I want to map what I see
on the sign.
If I see a sign like
https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2018/2018-10-07-Opdorp-Lippelobos/i-sFgCzRj,
I want to somehow map "Lippelooweg / Buurtweg 57" and "Buurtweg 58",
regardless of what a map from 1800 says.

m.
On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 3:17 PM Ben Laenen  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 14:59 Marc Gemis >
>> I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
>> as well, not just 19.
>> I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
>
>
>
> Yeah but those words aren't very consistent in usage, do you take the French 
> words for Flemish roads because the Atlas was made in French for that 
> municipality? In the end there are only two types, a path and a road, and 
> there's no difference in a path being a sentier, pad, voetpad or voetweg on 
> one map from the 1800s.
>
> Also, if you want what's on the map, you'd need to have "Sentier n° 117" as 
> well for example.
>
> Ben
>
> ___
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> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Karel Adams]

But - for as little as I am acquainted with this specific matter - I 
should think language-related terms should never occur in a reference? I 
would expect and indeed welcome them in a name tag, probably 
language-specific like name:nl


KA

On 15/12/2018 14:13, Steven Clays wrote:
Indeed, that's why. Actually, it is a good way to deal with the 
sometimes blurry denominations on the signposts.


Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 14:59 schreef Marc Gemis >:


I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
as well, not just 19.
I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:47 PM Ben Laenen mailto:benlae...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> One question I have: why are the words "chemin", "sentier",
"voetweg" etc. part of the vicinal_ref tag? Better just leave the
number in there, the type of road is in the vicinal_type tag.
>
> Ben
>
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 12:33 Steven Clays mailto:steven.cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based
on the discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is
also proposed, seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref.
Links are restored and some pictures added. Comments and
improvements welcome.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Ben Laenen]

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 14:59 Marc Gemis  I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
> as well, not just 19.
> I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
>


Yeah but those words aren't very consistent in usage, do you take the
French words for Flemish roads because the Atlas was made in French for
that municipality? In the end there are only two types, a path and a road,
and there's no difference in a path being a sentier, pad, voetpad or
voetweg on one map from the 1800s.

Also, if you want what's on the map, you'd need to have "Sentier n° 117" as
well for example.

Ben
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Steven Clays]

Indeed, that's why. Actually, it is a good way to deal with the sometimes
blurry denominations on the signposts.

Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 14:59 schreef Marc Gemis :

> I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
> as well, not just 19.
> I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:47 PM Ben Laenen  wrote:
> >
> > One question I have: why are the words "chemin", "sentier", "voetweg"
> etc. part of the vicinal_ref tag? Better just leave the number in there,
> the type of road is in the vicinal_type tag.
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 12:33 Steven Clays  >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the
> discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also proposed,
> seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are restored and some
> pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
> >> ___
> >> Talk-be mailing list
> >> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Marc Gemis]

I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
as well, not just 19.
I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:47 PM Ben Laenen  wrote:
>
> One question I have: why are the words "chemin", "sentier", "voetweg" etc. 
> part of the vicinal_ref tag? Better just leave the number in there, the type 
> of road is in the vicinal_type tag.
>
> Ben
>
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 12:33 Steven Clays >
>> Hello,
>>
>> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the 
>> discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also proposed, 
>> seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are restored and some 
>> pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome. 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
>> ___
>> Talk-be mailing list
>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Ben Laenen]

One question I have: why are the words "chemin", "sentier", "voetweg" etc.
part of the vicinal_ref tag? Better just leave the number in there, the
type of road is in the vicinal_type tag.

Ben

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 12:33 Steven Clays  Hello,
>
> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the
> discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also proposed,
> seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are restored and some
> pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Steven Clays]

Sure, thank you.

Op za 15 dec. 2018 om 12:32 schreef Steven Clays :

> Hello,
>
> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the
> discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also proposed,
> seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are restored and some
> pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Karel Adams]

This matter is fully outside my are of competence, but the typo struck 
my eye. Please consider


s/oficial/official/g



On 15/12/2018 11:32, Steven Clays wrote:

Hello,

I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the 
discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also 
proposed, seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are 
restored and some pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory


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[OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Steven Clays]

 Hello,

I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the
discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also proposed,
seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are restored and some
pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads&wteswitched=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
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